Comments by RichardHutnik

George, do you mean the simple fact that you can have an infinite number of boards for chess is proof of this?  Aka, a board can theoretically by infinite size?

Ok, let's say we limit the board, for discussion sake to an 8x8 board (standard chess size).  Can such a game using an 8x8 board (standard chess, not movable tiles) be infinite in the number of variations?

At this point also, I would then like to ask, what fixed set of rules would be needed to still identify the game as chess, and allow for infinite variations?

Hey, here is a good question to ponder regarding this: What rules are by their nature unbounded that they cause a game to have infinite variety of rules associated with them?  One could argue that board size is one.  But what other ones?

This list is an attempt to come up with different aspects to the rules of
chess that could produce an unlimited (unbounded) number of variants based
upon changing the parameters around this rule type.  Please suggest more if
you can, or critique.  I will look to update this as time goes on. 

I see this so far:
1. Board size and shape.  A board can theoretically be infinite in size. 
Because of this, it can theoretically take on an infinite number of shapes
(shapes representing the number of spaces it has, and where they are
located).
2. The number of players (and also number of teams).
3. Time control: Amount of time each player has to play.
4. Play to points in a chess tournament: Players can play to an infinite
number of points.

Probably unbounded (no sure):
* Turn order and sequence of play.  This is based off the way progression
works.  There may be a limit to how many times a player can move in a row,
given a minimum number of pieces, which the victory conditions can always
be met.  In light of this, this may not be infinite.

Some that I am uncertain about:
* The number of unique pieces.  Is there an infinite number of ways a
piece can act on a chessboard?
* Number of pieces on a board and their mix.  If a board is finite size,
then this should mean there can only be so many piece combinations on a
board, right?
* Reserve pool mix.  It is theoretically possible that you can have an
infinitely large reserve of pieces that can be dropped in from every turn,
but I would argue there is the possibility for a board to get clogged up
with so many pieces, that it isn't infinite.  Even shuffling the reserve
doesn't resolve.
* Adding new rule types.  Are there really an unlimited number of
different rule types that can be added to chess, that make it unlimited.

What I don't see as unlimited:
* Shuffles. Unless you have a theoretical unlimited number of pieces on an
infinitely wide board, it doesn't look infinite to me.
* Piece names and look. This doesn't functionally change how a game is
played.
* Board colors. Unless the rules governing pieces is governed by color of
the board, this is irrelevant to how the game is played.
* Space shape.  I would argue there is only a finite number of ways that
spaces can be fit together that they would fit together.  Now, the
combination of these pieces definitely could potentially fit under the
unlimited category.

Please reply with others and comment.  You can also go to the Chess of
Tomorrow Project Thread to discuss this more there:
http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/forum/t-51667/chess-of-tomorrow-project-who-is-interested#post-140383

Interesting articles there.  They still run into the exact same issues
variants run into, they are considered abnormal freaks people are wary of.

There is also Many Rules chess (Someone suggested this be checked out):
http://www.chessvariants.org/other.dir/manyrules.html

All this I see as part of the Chess of Tomorrow project that can be worked
on.  Good to know what can be bounded verses unbounded and so on.

The next challenge, get this up to be infinite.  You could also go with drops and gating that even add more pieces to it, and change when they come in, and create a reserve.  One could also go with the idea of mutators that enter the game at different times.

Did we even begin to discuss the board that it could be played on?  We could even vary the boards here.  So, he idea is mutators, shuffle, drops and gating, different pieces, etc... to end up with a different game.  

So, what else can be added to make it infinite?  I believe to have this, is that ONE element that is infinite get added to the mix.  This should be a practical element that can be implemented.

May I suggest people also take this discussion to the Chess of Tomorrow project Wiki discussion to discuss going infinite?  http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/forum/t-51667/chess-of-tomorrow-project-who-is-interested

This would fit under the Calvinball/Hericlitian Chess idea that it is possible for humanity, given endless time, to never play chess with the same rules twice.

My take on Beyond Chess, if players at the start of the game are able to
follow those rules, and they aren't stopped, then doesn't that represent
merely one rule in effect?  This means the rules itself are still bound,
with Beyond Chess merely adding one new rule.  Yes, this rule adds a lot
of depth to the game, but it is still one rule.  Difference would be the
slide before you move, slide after you move, transport tile elsewhere,
having tiles disappear, etc...  Different starting configurations would
each be considered a different rule.  But the sliding a tile after a move,
to me, looks like a mutator, and thus one rule. 

Now, let's say you start restricting when this sliding can take effect,
and to what degree, that that would add more rules.  The idea here isn't
just asking if the decision tree can be unlimited, but the RULES governing
the decision tree is unlimited.

Please let me know what the final page will be that I can point the Tour
calendar to regarding it?

I am under the impression that Chess operated under a ban by the Catholic Church, because they likely found people spending far too much time playing it, and was picking up a gambling angle (the use of dice in some versions, and also probably betting).  The Church likely judged that chess was an unproductive use of time, and banned it.

As for the war analogy, this is my take, but you did happen to find the ruling class using it to train in strategy and movement.  You can also argue that perhaps it was a divination device for kings to determine outcome of battles (aka a wargame).  This then also might be another call for the ban by the Catholic Church regarding chess.

I have been playing around with this in Zillions, adding Capablanca pieces and found it is a very interesting design.  I am planning on having this game modified to the IAGO Chess System framework, complete with Capablanca pieces in it, in the next few weeks.

I am doing this entry separately to discuss it, as I happened to also stumble across it while working on an attempt to port Grand Chess to an 8x8 board.

The best way to go about this is to have a pass around the list thing to
see who would want to go for it, and how many pieces.  Then once enough
people sign up, take orders.  Then they do the run, get the molds made and
able to facilitate this.  Of course, we are going to need people to commit
to this.  Don't assume there is some sort of rich uncle of the variant
community who is going to do this out of the goodness of their heart. 
Assume that the community needs to get behind it. 

On this note, I would like to see people speak up here.  Are people
willing to get behind this project?  Please speak up here.  I know I want
to get ahold them.  I would rather use distinct pieces than go with using
PlunderChess, etc...

Let's see the benefits of this.  You could do variant tournaments at
conventions and actually have the real pieces for people to use.  

Well, that is my take here.  Who else would be interested.  I can assure
you this, if there is enough interest, I do know that the pieces can
become reality.

I would like to add that John Kipling Lewis thought of this same variant on Skirmish Chess as I had, so I wanted to give him credit.  He is looking to have a version where the board is only 6 rows big, which makes it different than this version.  I will let him decide what to call it.

Hey, let's also go with an 8x8 board, a 8x9 and an 8x10 board.  Shoot, you could also go all the way up to 8x14 or 8x16, giving the starting positions a larger back row space (as is seen in Skirmish Chess and Near Chess).  You could also push the pieces forward or back more.

The event page:
http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/cv-potluck-2008

Is now up on the IAGO World Tour schedule:
http://www.iagoworldtour.com/

I will also get the games into the officially registered with IAGO list.

Matthew, are you capable now of making custom pieces for people?  Please
feel free to offer your services now to people to do this.  Longer term,
perhaps a commercial version would be viable.  In the mean time, I
personally don't have any issues with you doing this.  If things, IAGO
related work out where we get a supplier, then maybe.  But, so long as you
can serve the needs of the community, please feel free to consider helping
out.

Anyone else have objections to what Matthew spoke on?  I personally don't
at this point.  Even if there is mass production of variant pieces, then
the community will be wanting more obscure ones.  So, at this point, I
don't see any issue now.  This may change down the road though.

By the way, what country are you located?

Anyone here know how to tell the Courier preset the following rules:
King capture for win 
no castling 
pawn promotion to your captured pieces only


I am curious how to have the rule say that so.  Any ideas?

Hey, I believe Stanley Random Chess relates to this question somehow:
http://www.chessvariants.org/link2.dir/srchess.html

Or maybe a way to phrase this is whether Stanley Random Chess would
actually have any Unbound rules to it.

I believe this has to be connected to Stanley Random Chess somehow:
http://www.chessvariants.org/link2.dir/srchess.html

Why do I have a feeling this is connected to CalvinBall Chess somehow:
http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=Calvinball+Chess