Comments by Johnny Luken
Feedback to the Chess Variant Pages - How to contactus. Including information on editors and associate authors of the website.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Chess Variant Pages Membership. Missing description[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]"To become a member, you must be a contributor to our pages (either as an author or inventor). Simply go to our Contributors Page, select your name from the top list, press the "Send" button, and then follow the instructions on the screen." In other words to become a contributor, you have to select your name from the readymade list of contributors? Anyone see the slight problem with this?! It might be helpful to people you know ARENT contributors to begin with, to have a contact to send their 1st submissions or other means of getting started. Its a little strange how you neglect ANYWHERE on this site to mention as how someone ACTUALLY becomes a contributor and sends in 1st submissions. Theres just a link to a general queries email and thats it. Are you actively trying to discourage new members and input? Because thats the impression this website gives. At least to me...
Joe, As far I can see, my name still isn't the list of dropdown options... I sent in my first submission 3 days ago, a chess 16*16 variant, to [email protected]. How long before I get feedback? Does the game show up on this website or do I resubmit as recognised contributor? Semantics aside, I stand by my point that this website could be made more accessible to new users, with a proper explanation and procedure for 1st submissions for a start...
Ok, I see its now been added. Aside from actual games, is there a way you can post piece articles or general essays and discussion on different concepts of interest? I for example have a particular interest in the Ultima/Rococo style games, and have thought of a number of piece types to expand upon them, but rather than churning out variants, I feel I might be best placed to simply publish piecemeal articles on the pieces...
When it comes to chess variants, theres quite a few concepts I've thought about and would like to at some point share on this website, a lot of them are vague and essentially none have I thought through to an actual meaningful conclusion, if its even possible to do so in the first place with these kind of things. I have no idea if people would even be interested in hearing them, but for those that are I'll post them regardless. This topic seems about as good a place to start as any other, so to get the ball rolling...
Introduction
This is just an outline I have on how to calculate Ultima piece values, not sure if anyones tried something like this (someone probably has), but thought I'd share and outline some of my (incomplete) work...
Ultima pieces are generally characterised by homogenous movement and differing capture technique. For a chess piece, its power is essentially just a matter of mobility. How effective an Ultima piece however is not as immediately obvious as with a chess piece. What we require is a brute force technique of calculating its power...
Statistical capture probability
This essentially involves calculating the probability of a piece making a capture across all situations. The pieces value comes out as an equation involving up to 3 variables-number of friendly pieces on the board=f, number of enemies on the board=e, board length=l. I'll spare people the actual maths, but the idea is to get an equation that can then be plotted across 3 axis, for all values of each piece.
Basic Method
So to carry out the calculation, you basically have to place the piece on every part of the board, and calculate the possibility of it making a capture from there. Anyone who knows anything about probability theory knows that it will come down to two basic words; AND (multiplying), OR (adding), with the net result being a value between 0 and 1 of an event happening.
So for a piece on square X the process becomes basically; probability of capturing in this direction, added to probability of then capturing in THIS direction if you couldn't previously capture and so on till you have a sum of variables.
The ultimate point is to get an average of all positions to get the final equation. You can simplify it by the symmetry of the board to only work it out for squares in one quarter and then half that again as only the central diagonal from the corner out has no mirror squares in that quarter, then you get the final polynomial.
Simple example; Remover
Probably the simplest to work with would be a "remover" piece (rifle captures any adjacent piece). So for this, taking e=no. of enemies pieces on board, f=no. of friendlies, l=length of board, A=area of board/number of squares on board, P=capture probability, the equation will be 4*(P for corner squares)+24*(P for edge squares)+36*(P for inner squares), as there are 4 corner squares, 24 edge squares and 36 inner squares, with no more differentiation needed between squares the remover can be on, as the remover only attacks adjacent squares. This is then divided by the total number of squares, 64 in this case, to get the average per square-the pieces actual value at a point in a game.
So the equation for P for a corner square is e/A+[1-(e/A)][(e-1)/A]+[1-[1-(e/A)]][(e-2/A)], which is about as simple as calculations get with this. Here the idea is P for a particular direction for a remover is (no. of enemies)/(number of spaces on the board), with for the next you using the unitary compliment (1-X) to multiply, in other words, probability of capturing in this square IF you didn't capture in the previous.
I won't bother doing any further calculations or finishing the equation for the remover, needless to say it gets drastically more complicated. I myself gave up for more complex pieces like the coordinator and pincer pawn, having only been able to slug it out for one night...
Open question; how to calculate for noncapturing Ultima pieces?
Its much more difficult to calculate any clean values for noncapturing pieces, by these methods at least, as for one thing there are so many types, each of what of which would require their own approach, one might reduce enemy mobility (immobiliser) and have a value proportional to enemy mobility, the other may force enemy movement and/or increase own mobility (pusher/swapper) with a value inversely proportional to piece mobility, or maybe a piece may do something else entirely eg a protector preventing friendly pieces from being captured, which would have a value proportional to the capture threat of the enemy. Then you could have pieces more abstract again...I didn't produce any actual results here, but a certain hierarchy becomes pretty obvious-the remover and withdrawer are extremely weak as they have zero probability of capture beyond adjacent squares, furthermore the withdrawer also relies on the probability of having an empty square in the opposite direction. For infinite range pieces, the displacer (queen) has a clear advantage over the advancer and long leaper, as it only relies on intermediate spaces being empty to make a capture. The advancer on the other hand has zero probability of capturing adjacent pieces. The long leaper does, but has to factor in the probability of an empty square behind the target piece.
On an infinitely large board, in starting conditions (all pieces on the board), to use a simple example, the displacer has capture probability in a starting direction of simply 1 in 4. The advancer approaches this value for infinitely large board. The long leapers is less-approaching a value of(1/4)*(3/4)=3/16, so 3/4 that of the other 2. The queen>advancer>long leaper hierarchy looks to be preserved for all conditions (all combinations of f, e, and A), however we have the additional caveat that the long leaper can capture multiple pieces a turn.
So what do we with that-well renaming the calculated pieces value as "statistical capture probability PER UNIT PIECE", we simply add the additional probabilities for capturing 2nd, 3rd etc pieces onto the long leapers previous value. On an infinitely large, full board the long leapers value approaches a series looking like (3/16)+[(3/16)*(3/16)]+[(3/16...], which converges to a value~0.93 advancer/queen. So while the long leaper has an additional relative increase in its term it never exceeds the queen/advancer in value.
Note that the long leapers value on a rococo board is improved, possibly beyond that of an advancer, as while it otherwise would have no probability of capturing a piece on the edge of a board from a direction approaching the edge, this term now becomes (P encountering enemy piece) times (P capturing=space behind piece being empty=1)=P encountering enemy piece=1/4 in starting conditions. This is now contributed to the long leapers value, as in this case, (1/4)(P of being able to reach that edge square) added to all its terms (all positions, directions, 1st/2nd/3rd capture). The advancer on the other hand gets a minute increase in its value, basically (probability the target piece itself making having recently made a capture and not moved)(probability of reaching square in front of it to make the capture)(probability of not having made a previous capture), averaged across the board...
Jeremy, True, the Long Leaper would probably have a higher follow on capture probability than the Displacer, but I'd only be able to factor that in if I was calculating 2nd move capture probability, which is an order of magnitude more difficult problem to calculate. A piece threatened by an LL/advancer has a higher capture evasion ability as it can move in 7 directions to avoid capture, compared to to 6 for the Displacer. Moreover other pieces be moved behind the piece to stop the LL, which further reduces its attack threat. Its true that the Advancer is more flexible in where it leaves itself, which I indeed didnt try to calculate and ignored. It might be a stronger piece against static opposition compared to a Displacer-I imagine it could be particularly pesky at a start of a FIDE chess game, as would a withdrawer. This is a similar problem to the fact that a piece that can rifle capture has the exact same value by my method as a Displacer, yet has a much higher practical value in most game scenarios. This you could probably calculate as "opposition counter threat", which is lower for a rifle capturing piece as its not "at the scene of the crime" so to speak. What exactly do you mean by calculating the average number of captures a piece can make? I would think this is the same as what I was doing-the higher the average number of possible captures, then the higher the average probability of making a single capture. There are simpler models can be used-a D has a capture range of 1-7 on a chess board, the LL 1-6, the A 2-7, the W 1. I factored in the LLs ability to make multiple captures in my 2nd post. Pieces that affect mobility can be calculated by the net mobility gain they produce. The immobiliser, now that I think of it, has essentially the same value regardless of opposition mobility, as it always reduces enemy mobility by the same fraction. The swapper on the other hand has a value proportional to friendly mobility. In a ultima environment its more or less worthless, about as useful as empty space, as it only produces a queen move, when all pieces can move like rook/queen anyway. In a FIDE chess game it has a higher mobility gain, as the pieces are less mobile, and becomes a stronger piece, while the I remains same in value. However the I of course automatically produces an relative mobility gain every move, unlike a swapper or like piece. If the 1:2 thing holds then that obviously must be factored in aswell, obviously piece values will be "squashed" together to some extent by their identical movement.
Jorg, Well ZoG gives relative values-Coordinator, Chameleon~3.3, Pincer Pawn~7.3, Immobiliser, Withdrawer, Long Leaper~11, which are clearly off. The chameleon for example has an actual value thats basically the average of all opposition pieces on the board. I already have a pretty good idea of practical values of Ultima pieces, but was just trying to find a clinical method of finding their values. I think I'm fighting a losing battle here though as whereas chess pieces (in chesslike environment) have relative values dependent only on the size and shape of the board, Ultima pieces depend mostly on "game environment" which is a much more amorphous concept...
I understand what you mean now. I calculated the values of A, D and LL as similar on a full, infinite, board, based on my method, but the D can threaten on average twice as many pieces as the others, which is a clear advantage. In any event both methods have calculation of P as a starting point, which will give a decent starting point for estimation of a pieces power, or at least the hierarchy between pieces...
Rococo. A clear, aggressive Ultima variant on a 10x10 ring board. (10x10, Cells: 100) (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]Robert Abbotts idea for 2 cooperating triangulators would work better if one of the pieces was made "royal", and the other piece could be brought back, either as a circe piece, or brought into the game by its "royal" counterpart, which is the piece that would have to be captured in order to take both off the board permanently. This idea could be used for other tandem pieces, which are an interesting concept by themselves, and throw up all kinds of new possibilities...
Replacing the spare long leaper with a 2 range archer seems a logical step forward. Merging the advancer and withdrawer takes a weak piece off the board, but the new piece is possibly too strong in an already offensive game. I like the idea of keeping the withdrawer, but allowing it to capture king and officer pieces from up to 2 squares away, but perhaps only 1 square still for pawns.
Alice Chess. Classic Variant where pieces switch between two boards whenever they move. (2x(8x8), Cells: 128) (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]A pretty playable subvariant would be with both boards full, and ordinary moves, starting and ending on the same board, by necessity, legal. You could even adapt the mechanic for higher dimensional games, with layers of boards, with the rule that for a piece to move legally from one board to another, the move would have to be legal on all intermediate boards aswell...
How long do you generally have to wait for a submission to pass through and become a publically accessible variant? I submitted my 1st variant-Chess 256-8 days ago, and haven't received any feedback whatsoever...
Just a run down of some of the Ultima piece ideas I've had. Too many to put in at once, so I'll update it as I go. Most of the ideas are pretty fundamental, often following on directly from existing ideas in one way or the other, but are still interesting to contemplate...
I'd ideally like to introduce them in the form of actual variants rather than just as a comment, but shoehorning them all into custom variants is a slow process, and not really practical for so many piece types. My preferred variant would be in the form of "universal" variant anyway, in which case, after laying down the framework, it would come down to the same matter of listing out various pieces. So may aswell just start that here...[note; all pieces unless otherwise stated have queen movement, and are generally adjusted to have similar performance on a 64 square board, LOS=line of sight, ie squares that can covered by a piece by one queen move]
Absorber; adopts ability of any enemy piece it is in the attack range of.
Agitator; can force any enemy piece in LOS, or any adjacent piece on immediate arrival, to capture a specific piece from your side, even if doing so causes them to lose the game.
Ambassador; adopts ability of any friendly piece it is in the attack range of.
Anchor; friendly pieces in LOS cannot be moved.
Approacher; captures by halving distance between it and a piece.
Bully; can remove all enemy pieces in a surrounding 5x5 square, provided those pieces are outnumbered.
Collider; knocks pieces back in direction of its movement on collision. Each piece on its collision with the next piece stops and carries the movement onto the next piece, until the edge of the board is reached. Move also carries "momentum", in that enemy pieces affected may not immediately contradict with other movement than along the same direction the collider sent it on.
Crazy hopper; captures a piece by landing an equal number of spaces behind it as it was in front of it. Can continue in a straight line or turn 45 degrees and continue for further captures. Can also hop over friendly pieces.
Despair; royal piece. If enemy loses sight of this piece, you lose.
Driller ; can perform series of displacement captures, starting with adjacent piece.
Hope ; royal piece. Lose sight of hope and you lose.
Hunter; captures nearest piece. If it has more than one nearest piece, then it can't capture.
Huntress; like hunter, but captures most distant piece.
Isolator; if any piece in LOS becomes isolated, through the isolators movement or that of a friendly piece, it is captured. If a piece is already isolated, then it can use rifle capture.
Martyr; royal piece. If the enemy captures it, they lose.
Mixer; can trade places of all pieces in LOS in any way it likes.
Overseer; any piece in overseers LOS cannot be captured provided it is in the attack range of another friendly piece.
Pacifier; any enemy piece within 2 squares of pacifier cannot capture, or act.
Puller; pulls any number of pieces as far as it likes, regardless of distance of pieces in the series from eachother. Enemy pieces may only move directly towards the puller on the move directly after.
Pusher; pushes any number of pieces as far as it likes. Enemy pieces may only move directly away from the pusher on the move directly after.
Retreater; captures by doubling distance between it and a piece.
Skewer; can capture a connected linear series of pieces, landing immediately behind the last piece. The 1st piece can be any distance from the skewer.
Skipper; can capture a linear series of pieces, by performing a series of hops equal in size, regardless of whether there are other pieces in the space inbetween. Must be able to finish by landing on an empty space. In the same family as the long leaper, crazy hopper, and skewer.
Spy; adopts ability of any enemy piece it is in LOS of.
Tracker; captures by landing on the last square a piece occupied.
Trapper; restricts all enemy pieces in surrounding 5*5 square, to movement within that square.
#PART II# ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ABOMINATION: any piece in LOS (ie enemy piece-these pieces never negatively affect own side) within 3 squares must move directly away. ACCELERATOR: forces any piece in LOS to move the furthest number of squares it can. If tied between 2 options must take diagonal, if still tied then has a choice. ALICIAN PIECE: any piece-any piece at all-in LOS behaves like piece from Alice chess. AMPLIFIER: increases the ability of any friendly piece in LOS in a predefined fashion. ANDERNACH PIECE: any piece in LOS that makes capture is converted on doing so. ANTI-MAGNET: like the attractor, but repels enemies and attracts friends. ATOMIC QUEEN: from atomic chess, if captured or making a capture, queen and all adjacent pieces are destroyed. ATTRACTOR: from gravity chess, on making a move, 1) if making diagonal, all orthgonal pieces in LOS are attracted, 2) vice versa for orthogonal movement. Effected enemy pieces may not move directly away on any move after until either piece moves again. CATCHER: any piece that passes within 2 linear squares from the catcher are unable to move further at that exact point for that turn. CLOAK: a la kriegspiel, the cloak and any friendly piece in LOS are invisible to the enemy. COMBINER: friendlies on opposite sides of the combiner along its LOS merge abilities with eachother. Also have the ability to use both simultaneously. CONTROLLER: as a move can make any enemy piece in LOS move, in order to attack own side, or otherwise. DEFLECTOR: captures with displacement, after colliding with a piece and continuing past the piece at 45 deg angle. EQUALISER: any enemy piece in LOS that makes a capture is immediately captured in turn or made subject to its own effect, same for any pieces that capture friendly pieces in LOS. GIANT QUEEN: the bigger they are the harder they fall-if any of the 4 squares it occupies is attacked, then the giant queen is captured. Can also capture on all 4 squares simutaneously. MAGNET: like the attractor, but repels friendlies and attracts enemies. MISSIONARY: if friendly piece in LOS captures or if enemy piece in LOS is captured, then conversion occurs instead of normal capture. If displacement capture, then placed on adjacent spot. MUTUAL ANNIHILATOR: any piece in LOS, or with one intervening piece, can be captured with both pieces destroyed. If captured itself, the enemy piece is also captured. NIGHTBRINGER: like in dark chess, enemy can't see beyond their own capture range (not movement range as in dark chess). If the nightbringer is captured, then the curse is lifted. QUADRANT: remote captures on 3 squares that mirror the stationary position of the quadrant along the 4 fourfold symmetry of the board. Can capture on all squares at once. RECYCLER: any friendly piece in LOS thats captured is returned to starting square, but only if that square is occupied, in which case it is captured. REPELLER: a la antigravity chess, the final part of the family of attractor, magnet and antimagnet, repels pieces. RESURRECTOR: can bring captured friendlies back onto the board onto adjacent squares, but not from the comfort of its own half of the board. RETRACTOR: captures adjacent pieces by moving 45 deg away from relative position of pieces. Can capture 2 pieces in this way. SIREN: any piece in LOS must move towards the siren until adjacent. SUPPRESSOR: any piece in LOS is restricted in movement proportional to its proximity-eg if adjacent can only move 1 square. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Any questions/feedback/suggestions welcomed, part 3 to follow...
Hi, I want to submit a variant called Minima, but it says someone has already submitted a variant by that name. Now I'm not aware of anyone previously using this, I'd already checked, and theres no such game on this website, unless someones just now beaten me to the punch with a pending submission... Can anyone help me out with this? I can always change the name of course, but its a bit unfortunate as the name fits it like a hand in a glove, it being, loosely speaking, a small board hybrid of Ultima and Maxima. In fact the name was the starting point for the entire variant!
Okay I've now submitted it as "Minima." The other names I entered after, not realising that they all get logged even if you don't complete the form. You can disregard them. Still not sure why it rejected me the very 1st time when all I'd done is enter the name though... Anyway cheers for your help...
To Jochen Muller and Chung Lee. I can't seem to move anymore. When I click on game courier link in Whats New, I'm now locked out from following games. It forces a login just to see my own (I'm already logged in?!), and nothing comes up when I do, just stays on the login page. Also Jochen, Andernach Chess has no automatic preset, and I couldnt find any way to move.
Minima. johnnyluken. (6x6, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]Hi Malcolm, Thanks for your interest. a) yes, cylinder is vertical, so attacking enemy pieces isn't possible on 1st move. b) I hadn't thought about this. Yes, I would allow it, and also to make stationary capture, in the case of the coordinator. Its quite an aggressive game, so null moves to stall wouldn't generally offer any great advantage... c) another good question. No, I wouldn't allow that, as that would make the pushme-pullyu a de facto displacement capturing piece in certain cases. d) yes multiple capture is possible, for all pieces. e)chameleon is restricted to the opposition pieces capture method, but not movement type, so captures all pieces, pawn and king included, with queenwise movement. f) yes the pawns can move and capture up to 2 squares in any direction, apart from backwards. g) correct, a pawn can theoretically capture 7 pieces in one turn. h) pawn promotion is compulsory. Default would be pushme-pullyu as promotion piece, as its not actually in starting setup, or if it is, is then queen/long leaper as promotion piece, (ie whichever of the 3 isn't in starting setup), then previously captured pieces for every promotion thereafter.
I'm considering rewriting this game a bit. It looks like it could be refined with a few adjustments. a) I would upgrade the kings capturing from displacement (which is already covered), to pushme-pullyu, and then removing that officer piece itself, as an option. Seems slightly more elegant, and makes the king a more interesting and powerful piece. b) this however allows the king to immediately capture on 1st turn. This can be counterracted by mirrored setup with each king facing an coordinator, which could immediately capture the king in retribution. An immobiliser can be placed on the other side of the coordinator, to attack the king if it captures the other pawn. c) pushme-pullyu/displacer/long leaper aren't ideal promotion pieces, as they dont improve on the power of existing officer pieces. So with the pushme-pullyu gone, I would introduce a new piece on promotion, the remover. This piece is the most powerful piece on the board, capturing pieces with rifle capture over any distance, even if immobilised. In opening setup, its too powerful, but as a promotion piece on a more open board, it works well. d) the coordinator, as is, is too powerful. I would still allow it to capture passively, on kings movement, but would restrict it to only capturing on the 1st diagonal intersections, and not the secondary diagonal intersections that occur in a cyindrical board. This still makes it at least twice as powerful as an Ultima/Maxima coordinator. The king, in cooperation with the coordinator, can capture up to 6 pieces in one turn.
Charles, I think you should extend your nomenclature and categorisation to Ultima pieces. They're a bit "wilder" than Chess pieces, so its a bit of a bottomless pit in a way, but it would be treading fresh ground. I'd help...
I don't mean just movement differentiated variants of the few existing "accepted" Ultima pieces. I mean the categorising and nomenclature of the extended set of pieces with homogenous movement (typically queenlike) differentiated by effect/capture method. Such as some of the pieces I've introduced on the subject you're commenting on right now...
Well in Ultima and like games theres always a split between using passive and active noun in naming them-(Queen, King, Shield, Magician vs Swapper, Advancer Withdrawer, Immobiliser etc). I mixed both to avoid being repetitive, and to ease the search for finding the most appopriate word for a piece, without being contrived. Attaching -er suffix might help brand them as Ultima pieces and avoid "encroaching" on existing Chess miscellany, but in any event the logic behind names such "Ambassador", and "Cloak", should be pretty clear if you read the piece descriptions... Not so much the hunter/huntress pieces. Perhaps "proximator", and "aproximator", would be more accurate. "Bully" could be a "numerator", perhaps.
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