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Pawnless chess[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Jianying Ji wrote on Fri, May 10, 2002 02:07 AM UTC:
I am creating a pawnless CV, which suddenly led to the question of:

What happens in FIDE chess if we remove the pawns and disallow castling.
Does white have overwhelming advantage or is there a good defense for 
black?

Peter Aronson wrote on Fri, May 10, 2002 04:05 AM UTC:
I don't think simply removing the Pawns from the FIDE array would make a good game. Consider Derek Nalls various all-rider Chess variants -- they use rather different arrays indeed. <p> Maybe something like:<b><pre>+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | r |:q:| k |:r:| |:::| |:::| +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ |:b:| n |:n:| b |:::| |:::| | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | B |:N:| N |:B:| |:::| |:::| +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ |:R:| Q |:K:| R |:::| |:::| | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+</pre></b> Of course, different pieces might work even better, such as halfling pieces or powerful but short ranged pieces, such as Half-Ducks for Rooks and FAD's for Bishops and a FAWDH for a Queen. Experimentation is certainly the key here.

Jianying Ji wrote on Fri, May 10, 2002 09:23 AM UTC:
Actually my game will be different from just removing pawns from standard
FIDE setup. The reason for my question is more along the lines of giving
a pawnless FIDE, what are the shortcommings of such a game, and why 
wouldn't it be a good game. Or in other words what is the mininum that
can be done to make it a good game.

Jianying Ji wrote on Fri, May 10, 2002 04:14 PM UTC:
Thinking about it, let me restate my question in the form of 2
challenges:

Construct the shortest possible fool's mate for the following variant:

FIDE chess without pawns nor castling.

Then construct the shortest possible computer's mate (named after early
chess computer programs),  by which I mean that it will respond to
any possible mate within 3 moves. Or another way to say it is
construct the shortest game that leads to a win in 4 moves.

gnohmon wrote on Sat, May 11, 2002 01:49 AM UTC:
I have played games of FIDE Chess with W giving odds of all 8 Pawns....

With both sides no Pawns, I'd try 1. Qxd8+ followed by 2. Rh1xh8, which
ought to win.

With Pawns replaced by W or F or Berolina Pawns, in a sense it's not so
Pawnless, is it?

Racing Kings is Pawnless. It has a different goal, and perhaps you could
argue that it's not even Chess. However, in the process of becoming NOST
postal champion a few years in a row, I learned to appreciate what a great
game it is.

Without using really weak pieces to replace Pawns, you could probably find
a setup on the 4x16 circular chessboard that works.

gnohmon wrote on Sat, May 11, 2002 02:03 AM UTC:
Construct the shortest possible fool's mate for the following variant:

FIDE chess without pawns nor castling.

I love these questions, and always try to include them in my own new
games.

1 Rh7 Na6 2 Qh5++; a pretty solution because because Rh7 covers flight
squares *and* blocks Rh8xh5.

Note 1 Be2 Bd7 2 Kf1 Ra7 3 Qe2 Ra8 4 Bh5++ is shortest doublecheck mate.

Jianying Ji wrote on Sat, May 11, 2002 02:36 AM UTC:
> I love these questions, and always try to include them in my own new
> games.

Glad that you like these kind of questions. I thought it might be fun
too.

> 1 Rh7 Na6 2 Qh5++; 

Short and sweet. Quite amazing really.

'Note 1 Be2 Bd7 2 Kf1 Ra7 3 Qe2 Ra8 4 Bh5++ is shortest doublecheck
mate.'

the 3rd move doesn'T make sense.

After the second move we have

. n . q k b n r
r . . b . . . . 
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . 
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . B . . .
R N B Q . K N R

Qe2 is an impossible move, however I think you intended Qe1

which works.

It is interesting that both of these are helpmates, I wonder if a
computer
mate as I defined can be found easily, or does it really need a computer
to answer that questions.

gnohmon wrote on Sat, May 11, 2002 02:55 AM UTC:
1 Be2 Bd7 2 Kf1 Ra7 3 Qe1 Ra8 4 Bh5++ doublecheck

'I'm glad you like these questions' -- I have always (well, at least since
I started publishing CV writings in the early 1970s) appreciated the
value-added that asking these questions can give to your new game.

Before you ask, you should either know the answer or suspect that the
answer will be really interesting.

The 'standard' questions are::::::::

1. Shortest foolsmate (for some games, shortest victory)

2. Shortest doublecheck (triple check, quadruple check, etc.) with or
without mate

3. Shortest stalemate; 4. shortest stalemate without capture (the great and
brilliant and superhuman Sam Lloyd solved these for FIDE Chess; if you
don't know his solutions, look them up and you will feel the emotion known
as 'awe' -- really, no exaggeration, awe.)

5, shortest perpetual check, 6. others appropriate for specific variants.

Jianying Ji wrote on Sun, May 19, 2002 05:16 PM UTC:
I have been studying the advices in this thread and examining some of 
my ideas along this line. The following is what I have developed so far:

Pawnless Chess

-by Jianying Ji			

Introduction:

This variant is inspired  these primary sources: 
1: Kevin Maroney's Ur Chess
2: Ralph Betza's Halfling Chess

One of the main motivations of this variant is similar to that of Ur Chess
in that I was looking for a 'simplified' variant of chess. As I read Ur
chess I saw that many of the fiddly rules he was trying to change concerned
pawns, so it seemed natural to me to dispense with pawns alltogether. But
that led to an immediate problem, which is with the major pieces of FIDE
facing each other the opening usually end up with a lot of exchanges and
not many pieces on the board after the exchanges end.  To combat this, the
pieces needs to be weakened and captured pieces recycled. So I used
halfling chess to weaken the pieces, and added the capture return rule to
recycle the pieces. I changed the knight to halfling Knightrider to
strengthen the army a bit so that it won't be too slow. The details
follows:

Board and Setup:

Use standard chess board and setup with the pawns removed

r n b q k b n r
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
R N B Q K B N R

Rules:

1. All pieces move as they do in halfling chess, except the knight, 
which becomes a halfling knightrider.

Motivation: To weaken the pieces so the opening will be more strategic,
rather than tactical. As Peter Aaronson suggested and Ralph Betza showed.

2. A captured piece is returned to the owner, who is to put it back on 
its starting rank. It is the owner's choice, which open square to put 
the returned piece on.  If the starting rank is fully occupied then 
the captured piece is discarded.

Motivation: Since the ratio of pieces to squares is so low, to start 
with, this rule will keep more pieces in play longer, for a more 
tactical and longer endgame.

3. No repetition of a previous board position

Motivation: Super-Ko rule is adopted to reduce draws.

Object:

Checkmate or stalemate the opponent

Motivation: Stalemating the opponent is included as a winning condition 
to reduce draws.

Notation:

R        a1        x           a5  	         [a8]
piece	source   capture    destination    drop location

piece: name of the piece
source: starting square
capture: x if capture occured, - if non-capturing move.
destination: ending square
drop location: the location to which the captured piece is dropped

Can be abbreviated if no ambiguity arises.

Remember, if capture occurs, drop location must be specified.


Comments:

Shortest fool's mate is 2.5 moves, which is comparable to FIDE, 
with the added benefit of being more 'foolish'.

Tempo is most important in this game. Losing tempo can be fatal. 
It is even more important than safety of specific pieces. Since 
pieces are recycled.

I have done some playtesting but I would welcome more. And any
more suggestions!

Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, May 21, 2002 03:42 PM UTC:
This is looking interesting. Have you tried it yet? If you don't have an opponent it would be easy enough to program for Zillions, given that Halflings have been figured out for ZRF. <p> In his page on <a href='../dpieces.dir/amontillado.html'>Amontillado Chess</a>, Ralph Betza speculates that a Halfling Nightrider is worth in the neighborhood of 1/2 a Queen, or approximately the value of a Halfling Queen. I don't see this as a problem with your game, mind you, but if it is correct players will have to be careful to keep in mind the new balance of power amongst the pieces. <p> I do wonder about the piece density -- 16 pieces on 64-squares do seem to rattle around a bit. I suppose you could double the back rows except for the Kings, although I'm not sure that would improve matters. <p> I'm not sure if it necessary, but if the game tends to end in draws even with the stalemate rule, you could also add victory by Bare King.

Jianying Ji wrote on Sat, May 25, 2002 12:44 PM UTC:
I hve played the game a few times. mate does take time but not 
impossible, in fact draws should be extremely rare, since captures are 
nearly impossible and positions can't be repeated, so a mating position 
will have to come up, and failing that a stalemate position which is 
also a loss or win depending on the player. Though I am looking for more 
playtesting. email: [email protected]

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