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Giant Chess. 16x16 board with the same pieces as Turkish Chess, but also the "Dev" piece which takes up four squares. (16x16, Cells: 256) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Ben B. wrote on Sat, Oct 26, 2002 04:30 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
This game was a lot of fun. You start forming larger tactical plans and not worrying about the details so much, since being down by several pieces is gerenally not a huge disadvantage. Just make sure you set aside enough time to play it. The Devs were a fascinating piece, they didn't stomp all over everything like I thought they would. In fact, they proved fairly easy to defend against with the immense amount of pieces on the board, instead proving their worth in psychological value and tying up opponent's pieces that were defending against it. The Devs only captured six pieces, total, during the game, three of which were pawns.

Miles wrote on Sun, Dec 7, 2003 02:08 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
This is the best large chess variant I have ever seen! But I have one question: how can pawns promote on rows 1 and 16 as well as rows 2 and 15? If a pawn reaches row 2 or 15, wouldn't it automatically promote since it only moves one square at a time (aside from the initial double step move)? In that case, it seems rather impossible for the pawn to promote on rows 1 and 16.

Michael Nelson wrote on Sun, Dec 7, 2003 06:57 AM UTC:
I would assume that promotion on ranks 2 and 15 is optional, while the promotion on 1 and 16 is mandatory. Very occasionally it would be advantageous not to promote a pawn (say to avoid stalemate).

George Duke wrote on Fri, Feb 11, 2005 07:04 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
'GHI,LargeCVm': 'Shogi' is Xiangqi Cannon, and Elephant is its diagonal equivalent, Vao or Canon, invented by Thomas Dawson early 20th century. The innovation in this game is the Deve, which occupies four squares(2x2) at once. Deve's move is two-square(in a block) never one-square(See diagram). Cobra Chess starts 'sub-cross-thread' of pieces that move to, or have effects over, more than one square. Whilst same-coloured pieces cannot stand at either one's squares, Cobra occupies a single point, or intersection, and can move 'between' same-coloured pieces along grid-lines. Both Deve and Cobra always have effects, and vulnerability, over four squares. More mobile Cobra can be captured at any of its four positions. Deve capture is accomplished by three-square control and fourth-square arrival by opponent.

(zzo38) A. Black wrote on Sat, Aug 6, 2005 03:54 AM UTC:
The symbol for the Shogi isn't very good, it probably should be called a cannon, and the correct symbol should be used (the Xiang-qi cannon symbol. The one you used means 'Flying Chariot'). Of course if you don't have a set for this game, or Shogi either, I guess you might use whatever you have...

Jeremy Good wrote on Mon, Jun 19, 2006 09:55 PM UTC:

The Dev appears to be a lot less vulnerable than two other well known multiple occupancy pieces, Peterson's Cobra and the wall. The rule for capturing the Dev is this: 'Devs can capture devs directly. However the other pieces of the opponent can capture the dev, if all of the four squares that dev is standing on are under threat ...' In the case of the wall and Peterson's Cobra, the entire entity is destroyed if any part of it is attacked without the whole being threatened. So the Dev suffers from weaker movement ability but this is partially compensated by greater invulnerability.

David Howe has written an essay about pieces of differing size - Growing and Shrinking: Playing with the Size of Chess Pieces. The notes to that page reference a few more such pieces.

Mark Hedden should be mentioned here as having made significant contributions to this genre of variants using multiple occupancy pieces (as well as multiple occupancy squares).


Jeremy Good wrote on Thu, Jun 22, 2006 12:15 PM UTC:
It might make some sense to allow pawns on the fifth rank to make a triple move, in addition to the double move.

Abdul-Rahman Sibahi wrote on Thu, Feb 8, 2007 02:25 PM UTC:
How is castling done in this game ? It might make a nice variant if it was pawnless (or with Berolina pawns) AND played with the Grid chess system. Of course in this case the Dev should be captured like the Wall.

Koksal Karakus wrote on Sat, Sep 1, 2007 05:51 PM UTC:
I don't know what I was thinking back then, but If I had an option right
now I would rename the 'Shogi' piece to 'Cannon' as it should be, and
I would change the figure accordingly. Same thing applies to the Turkish
Chess variant I created around the same time.

We are currently playing this game as: White plays 2 moves with different
pieces first, then each side takes turns playing 4 moves all of which has
to be with different pieces. This seems to speed up the game considerably.

Rich Hutnik wrote on Mon, Apr 7, 2008 02:30 AM UTC:
I am wondering if something could be added in order to allow the mobilization of more than one piece during a turn. Perhaps have a commander unit that mobilizes a bunch of pieces that are near it, like Joe Joyce uses in his Chieftain Chess:
http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchieftainchess

George Duke wrote on Mon, Apr 7, 2008 07:10 PM UTC:
Noting that I have played half, 3, of the 6 altogether Game Courier logs of Giant Chess in all five years, please avoid changes in Giant Chess. It plays well just the way it is, because Dev balances the board size. Karakus already now has the four-move-per-side option as the first form recommended.

Rich Hutnik wrote on Mon, Apr 7, 2008 07:14 PM UTC:
When you are looking at that many pieces, my take is being able to move more than one piece per turn is a must. One could even mix this up a bit by having commander pieces that, if capture, reduce the amount of moves you get per turn by one. So, if you have 4 moves per turn, if you capture on, the number of moves is reduced to 3, etc... These commanders could actually replace the King piece. I am borrowing a bit from Chieftain Chess here, but so be it. It is just an idea. I actually dabbled with this concept awhile back with Conquest, in a variant where you only moved so many pieces per turn, and had number of moves reduced with each section of the enemy fort that was captured.

George Duke wrote on Wed, Sep 10, 2008 05:16 PM UTC:
For Giants fans. Playing in 3 of the 6 Game Courier logs so far in GC five-year history, I attest that Giant Dev, occupying 4 squares, makes the game such as it is. Dev moves two squares never one. Jeremy Good clarifies Dev must be attacked at all four squares for capture. Unfortunately, Chess Variant artwork without exception gets much admired and hardly played at all; and that's the whole point of free-expression proliferation, started by Ralph Betza's going hog-wild around year 2000.

John Smith wrote on Tue, Feb 17, 2009 01:26 AM UTC:
Interesting piece; Dev. I suggest you allow 4 pieces to move per turn, Devs captured only by 4 pieces. Speeds up the game, I think!

John Smith wrote on Mon, Nov 9, 2009 02:17 AM UTC:
As a variant, you could have partially-captured Devs. This could either have its squares captured individually, or have the captors attach to it and move with the Dev, contributing to its feeling of size.

George Duke wrote on Wed, Aug 4, 2010 03:35 PM UTC:
Frolov's ''Xiang-qi Moving Palace and River'' is as a piece occupying nine squares. If putting a Withdrawer in there, it is possible moving Palace may capture 4 units at once. Dev here and Cobra and couple others take up four squares at a time. ''Chess on a Longer Board With a Few Pieces Added'' adopts the two-spaces Wall of Hedden in 2001.

Malcolm McLeod wrote on Wed, Apr 17, 2013 11:44 PM UTC:
It looks awesome, but it seems like the knights are really useless on this board and further damaged by being so far back. I think you should also try to increase your piece diversity.

Daniil Frolov wrote on Wed, Jan 22, 2014 12:10 PM UTC:
I would allow knights (and pieces with knight's component) to make also 4:2 leap (in addition to tandart 2:1 leap) - to respective square in 2x2 zone, wich would be giant knight's leap away.
In corresponding to board's large size, large amount of pieces, and division into 2x2 zones.

Szling Ozec wrote on Fri, Feb 26, 2016 10:39 PM UTC:
Perhaps a piece with the combined movements of the knight and flamingo(1,6 jumper). The flamingo move would allow the piece to be much more mobile on the large board, it might be a good idea to restrict the flamingo move to passive only as this would allow the piece much greater mobility without too greatly increasing its attack capabilities.

Bn Em wrote on Tue, Jun 4 10:20 PM UTC:

The Devs here are distinguished from a group of four Dabbabas bound together not only in their (reduced) vulnerability to capture, but also in a slightly subtler way given the presence of Cannons and Vaos (here ‘Shogis’ and ‘Elephants’, though the author has since changed to preferring the conventional names): given the wording of their jumping ability as involving “one piece” between source and destination, a Dev can be presumed to provide a single two‐square‐wide mount for such a piece. A consequence of this is that a Cannon or Vao, like the other normal sliders, cannot threaten the far side of a Dev; it either targets the near side or jumps the whole thing. By contrast, a foursome of Dabbabas would be insurmountable for a Cannon (or for a Vao along the main diagonal), but the Cannon could target its far side.

Mostly something to watch out for in case anyone attempts a computer implementation


Bob Greenwade wrote on Wed, Jun 5 12:30 AM UTC in reply to Bn Em from Tue Jun 4 10:20 PM:

That's a good analysis of the Cannon vs. Dev dynamic.

Mostly something to watch out for in case anyone attempts a computer implementation

I've been thinking for a little while about how it'd be kind of nice to have some way of indicating a piece's increased size on an Interactive Diagram. I can think of two or three ways it might be doable, but with no more than maybe a half-dozen games on this entire site using such pieces, I doubt it'd be worth the effort (unless the new coding is no more than, say, 15-20 lines).


H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Jun 5 06:16 AM UTC in reply to Bob Greenwade from 12:30 AM:

There are many ways conceivable for how multi-square pieces would behave, differing in the details. In the Dev case it is especially troublesome for the AI that all occupied squares should be under attack; this means the legality of moves that capture it cannot be judged on their own merits, but require examination of the entire move list. This is a problem that transcends that of multi-square pieces, btw: you would also encounter it in variants that specify some piece can only be captured if it has multiple attackers.

I suppose one could nearly implement this through custom scripting in the existing I.D. code, with the xxxTinker routine, but in a rather complex way: the routine could test whether it is called for a new node by examining the node count, and when it is clear a variable for each Dev to record which of its components is attacked, and set up an empty array for moves. Each move hitting one of the Dev components would initially be rejected, but moved to the array of reserve moves. And the corresponding Dev component would then be marked as attacked.

After generating all moves it should then be tested which Dev has all its components attacked, and the shelved captures of such a Dev could then be appended to the official move list. This can currently only be done by writing a wrapper for the move generator routine. But perhaps an official interface should be provided for the user to add a custom routine for calling after move generation completes (e.g. xxxDone).


Bob Greenwade wrote on Wed, Jun 5 02:25 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 06:16 AM:

That's only the most complicated part of the problem I could see.

The simplest way that I could see for defining a large piece for the ID would be for an area=(x,y) property defined with the piece, x being the number of spaces wide and y being the number of spaces long, and the "root" space being at the player's lower left (so Black's would be at White's upper right). The system would then limit the piece (recognizing it from the "root" space) from getting too close to the right and far edges, and keep an awareness of what's in the neighboring squares as the piece moves, especially if it's a slider. Pieces like the Wall (and Great Wall), which are asymmetrical but can rotate by moving just one end, would be handled using morph (or a variant thereof).

The icon graphic could then be expanded to fit the space (for example, on a 50x50px board a twofold piece like the Wall would be 50x100 or 100x50; the Dev would be 100x100).

Between all that and what you cited, I think it would be a couple hundred lines of code, at least. (Is there support for an "include" file?)

Is there any documentation anywhere for (or even of) the xxxTinker routine?


H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Jun 5 04:38 PM UTC in reply to Bob Greenwade from 02:25 PM:

The simplest way that I could see for defining a large piece for the ID ...

That is only simple because you assume you only have to switch on the complex implementation that was already done by someone else. The number of lines needed to implement this in general (i.e. give every piece type a configurable size, 1x1 by default) is not very large. But they would then be executed very often, as they would appear in the innermost of all loops, doing a 2d scan of the specified area for every step in a move, where it now simply tests the occupant of a square. So it would cause an enormous slowdown in all variants, also those having only 1x1 pieces.

A better solution would be to allow custom generation for some given piece types (using X as their Betza descriptor). That would only require one simple test per piece for pieces that do not have it, which can even be combined with the test for already existing special Betza atoms such as the Imitator. So it would cause zero slowdown in normal variants, and a very tiny slowdown in variants that feature an Imitator. The custom script that would then be invoked would only have to deal with the move the multi-square piece actually has, and can ignore complexities like multi-leg, move induction, and in the case of the Dev, even sliding.

'Include files' are an intrinsic HTML feature; the betza.js script is in fact an include file. You could include as many .js files as you like in a page, or write script in the page itself. JavaScript also has the property that you can redefine routines; the last one of the same name it encounters is the one that will apply.

Since the betzaNew.js file is still considered experimental, the xxxTinker routine is not officially documented yet. (Except perhaps burried in the Comments).


Bob Greenwade wrote on Wed, Jun 5 04:45 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 04:38 PM:

That is only simple because you assume you only have to switch on the complex implementation that was already done by someone else. The number of lines needed to implement this in general (i.e. give every piece type a configurable size, 1x1 by default) is not very large.

I refer to it as "simple" as "simple from the user's perspective." I actually figured it would be a PITA to implement, and that the needed amount of code "is not very large" is a bit of a surprise to me.

Since the betzaNew.js file is still considered experimental, the xxxTinker routine is not officially documented yet. (Exept perhaps burried in the Comments).

I'll wait for this, then. Perhaps there can be a bigpiece.js in the future (whoever decides to write it; I'm going to try to learn enough Javascript to write a weirdmoves.js for this).


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