Comments/Ratings for a Single Item

For the Thematic Tournament, we can think in one of the following
proposals:

1.- Shogi and variants tournament
2.- Oriental classical variants tournament (Shogi, Xiang-Qi, Korean Chess,
Makruk)
3.- Shogi tournament (I guess good acceptance)
4.- Xiang qi (and variants?) tournament
5.- Ultima and variants tournament 
6.- Grand Chess (and variants?) tournament
7.- Little board variants tournament

I believe that 1 or 3 would be the main preference, based on observation,
but we need the opinion of all interested on the thematic tournament.

Just a note that game-specific tournaments are often held on other sites. 
But there is no reason they can't be held here, in fact CV has many games
that cannot be played on these other sites.  I just completed a Loop Chess
(Chessgi) event in a 4 person round-robin at BrainKing.  A while before
that I was in a larger Gothic Chess round-robin.  In a Round Robin,
everyone plays everyone. 

With large numbers of people (should that happen) a Swiss System can be
used.  After Round 1 people with 1 point play against others with 1 point,
while the 0-point players play other 0-point players [when possible].... in
Round 3, 2-point players play other 2-point players, etc.  No one is
eliminated.  If 100 people play we'd see (assuming no draws) the
following occurances of maximum points:

End of Round 1 - 50 people with 1 point
End of Round 2 - 25 people with 2 points
End of Round 3 - 12 people with 3 points
End of Round 4 -  6 people with 4
End of Round 5 -  3 people with 5 points
End of Round 6 -  2 people with 6 points (1 person had to get a bye)
End of Round 7 -  1 person with 7 points
             
The point ot this illustration is that only 7 rounds were needed to
reduced 100 players down to one winner.

Other tournament systems consist of several elimination Rounds.  For
example:  Round 1 might have 4 different Round-Robin groups going on (like
4 groups of 5 players, each playing 4 games); Then the Winners of each
Group emerge to play in a Second Round-Robin against each other.

You could hold separate Shogi and Xiang Qi tournaments simultaneously. 
Which raises the question: are the people likely to win these tournaments
particularly interested in playing in a multi-variant tournament with a
'western bias' to its games?  If not, then around the same time as the
multi-variant tournament we could hold a Combined Tournament: a four
player double round robin made up of the top two Shogi players and the top
two Xiang Qi players .  Each player would play one Shogi game and one Xiang
Qi game against every other player.

I won't say much about game selection and tournament structure; I'll play
in just about any event as long as the games are appealing and I have the
time.  All the ideas posted here so far are good, but I hope the
multivariant tournaments with democratically selected games won't go
away; part of the fun of these has been the exposure to games that I might
not have played otherwise.  My only real 'complaint' about the polling
process is that good old Chess doesn't seem to stand much of a chance of
getting through, and I'd like to play it alongside other games.  (Hmmm...
maybe a 'Big Three' chess/xiangqi/shogi tournament?)

I have some thoughts about scheduling, which apply mainly to largish round
robins.  In GCT1 the games were divided into three rounds; this worked, but
led to periods of relative inactivity if a round had one or two very long
games.  For GCT2 it was decided that games would be assigned as players
became available.  This was a good idea in principle, but in order to run
smoothly it seems to require an inordinately large (and prolonged)
time commitment from the director, who must continually check for finished
games and determine which players are available, how many new games can be
assigned, which of the remaining games should be assigned first, etc.

It seems to me that the game-assignment process could be automated.  I'm
thinking of a script which could run periodically (once a day, maybe) and
assign games until it couldn't assign any more without exceeding a
specified maximum number of ongoing games for any player.  The algorithm
to work out which games to assign wouldn't have to be very complex.  The
part that I don't know anything about would be the interface with Game
Courier.  Perhaps Fergus can tell us whether this would be feasible.

The Multivariant Tournament must be continued more or less as in the
previous editions, I only object the fee, it should be better a
free-inscription Tournament, I believe it can attract a few of new
players. And for the Thematic Tournament, we can ask people to explore
preferences. Particularily, I don´t see why not a couple or three thematic
tournaments, in the case there are enough interested people to play on.

I think one or two thematic Tournaments should be enough for a start. If
one, I would prefer Chess/Xiangqi/Shogi. If two, I would suggest an
Oriental Tournament and an Occidental Tournament, something like
Chess/Grand Chess/Fischer Random Chess (/Capablanca Chess?/ Berolina
Chess?/ Extinction Chess?/ Cylindrical Chess?). Or maybe an Oriental
Tournament one year and an Occidental Tournament the next one.

For the main Tournament, I would suggest to give 90 days to each player
and to begin all games simultaneously, even without a move-veryfing
preset.
And if there are too many players for everybody to meet everybody, I would
suggest to qualify the seven higher-ranked players of a round-robin into a
six-game final.

Computer help is illegal, of course, but I think we should state clearly
whether book help or Internet help (particularly for Chess opening theory)
is allowed once the games have started.

I consider text or Internet help (except Artificial Intelligence-aided
help, of course) for openings may be legal in games like Chess, Shogi or
Xiang-Qi by diverse reasons: the first is the nature of the slow-timed
Tournament, theory help can act in favour of quality, at least before the
middle of a game. The second, it reduces the advantage of very experienced
players: they can use the theory by memory, others can´t. Chess and
Xiang-Qi are very sensitive to openings, you can be considered lost, at
least in theory, even in three, four or five moves, if you fail in correct
first moves sequence. Theory exists, and people use theory by memory. I
don´t see incorrect you can use books in this class of Tournament. Shogi
is a bit different: theory exists, but the game itself is less sensitive
to bad openings. Other opinions?

i participate in chess/xiangqi tournaments at another internet site...
during their tournaments they allow the players to study 'printed'
material, but no computer/ai help is allowed...

I'm thinking a Chess/Shogi/Xiang Qi tournament may be a good idea. It
should attract more participants than anything broader, and it may
encourage people who have only focused on one or two of these to try the
others. If we go with this, then it probably makes sense to have everyone
playing three games at once. If the goal is to have everyone play each
other once at something, then we could pair people up on subsequent rounds
according to whether they both won or lost a particular game, favoring
games people have won when possible. This may allow us to have a champion
for each game, as well as for the tournament as a whole.

Would any editor like to volunteer to run the next tournament? This would
be a single-variant or few-variants tournament. I have made a suggestion,
and so have others, on what it should be, but I would leave the details to
your discretion. The main work would be in putting together a page for it,
collecting registrations for participation, and assigning games. The
collection of registrations could simply be done in the comment section of
the page, as long as there is no fee. Assigning of games is also very
simple, and I could guide you through the details.

How about a new volunteer?!

What are the minimum computer skills needed?

The minimum computer skills needed are the ability to write HTML and fill
out forms. That's assuming you go with something like Chess/Shogi/Xiang
Qi, for which all the presets have already been programmed.

I searched the Game Courier records for all games started in the year 2005,
and came up with some interesting facts.  Fischer Random Chess had 53
games, Shogi had 45 games, and 25 games included the word 'Shatranj' (15
Shatranj plus 10 modern variants).  Chinese Chess and (FIDE) Chess also had
around 25 games each - not counting games with zero moves - Game Courier
records contain many unanswered (person to person) challenges.  Searches
for *Grand* and *Great* yielded 14 and 4 more games, not counting the
'Grand Shatranj' and 'Great Shatranj' games.  Pocket Mutation Chess
accounted for 8 games.

I may (try to) run the next Chess/Shogi/Xiangqi Tournament, under Fergus'
supervision. (I'll be fully available in a week's time.)

Here's what I'm proposing. Each player plays two games of Chess, Shogi
and Xiangqi in a round-robin. They're assigned a random number (privately
drawn by the organizer).

If there are nine players, it goes:

     1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9

1        C   X   S           s   x   c
2    c       C   X   S           s   x 
3    x   c       C   X   S           s      
4    s   x   c       C   X   S        
5        s   x   c       C   X   S    
6            s   x   c       C   X   S
7    S           s   x   c       C   X
8    X   S           s   x   c       C
9    C   X   S           s   x   c

(meaning that player 1 plays as White at Chess against player 2, and so
on.)  


The four higher-ranked players (ex aequo players being ranked as in
GC1/GC2 Tournament) will play three extra games.

     1   2   3   4  

1        S   C   X 
2    s       X   C
3    c   x       S 
4    x   c   s  

If two players have the same number of points (the round-robin doesn't
matter any more) and have drawn at Chess or Xiangqi, they play one extra
Shogi game.


Draws by mutual agreement at Shogi are not allowed. But in case a game of
Shogi takes too much time in the round robin, the referee (or a substitute
if the referee has some interest in the case) allows a draw by mutual
agreement, allows seven days to each player, or gives 0.25 to both players
or 0.5 to one player and 0 to the other (say, for being back on time and on
material after 100 moves), as he wishes.

So, assuming it's a Chess/Xiangqi/Shogi tournament, do you agree with my
formula or do you prefer three games for each round, like Fergus
suggested?
(and by the way, am I in charge?)

You're in charge.

Antoine's proposal should work very well if the number of players is
prime.  If the number is divisible by 2 or 3, there's a small weirdness. 
Look at the Shogi pairings in the 9-player example: players 1, 4, and 7
play one another; 2, 5, and 8 play one another, and 3, 6, and 9 play one
another.  No one in any of these groups plays Shogi against anyone in
another group.  A similar partitioning into 2 groups would happen with
Xiangqi with an even number of players.  I don't know how much, if at
all, this should bother us.

Here's an interesting possibility, inspired by Fergus's idea of having a
champion for each game.  Perhaps the final round could consist of the top
Chess player, the top Xiangqi player, the top Shogi player, and the top
overall player (and, if some of these should be the same person, the 2nd
overall player, etc.).

I would prefer to allow draws by agreement even in Shogi, although they
should be discouraged except in clearly drawish positions.  It doesn't
seem fair to me to penalize both players for playing equally well just
because the game ran long.  If length is a concern, there must be some set
of carefully chosen time controls that will address the issue.

1)
Okay, draws will be allowed at Shogi.


2)
The problem which Thomas noticed is not merely a consequence that 9 is a
prime number, but more specifically that 3 is a divisor of 9. It is
avoided if there is no game between player1 and player4, player2 and
player5 and so on. So it works, because there are (exactly) six offsets
(1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8) which are prime with 9


     1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9

1        C   X       S   s       x   c
2    c       C   X       S   s       x 
3    x   c       C   X       S   s          
4        x   c       C   X       S   s      
5    s       x   c       C   X       S   
6    S   s       x   c       C   X     
7        S   s       x   c       C   X
8    X       S   s       x   c       C
9    C   X       S   s       x   c 

(True, one could say that there are three groups of players which don't
meet each other, that is, player1, player4 and player7 don't meet, and so
on.)

However, with 8, 10 or 12 players, it won't be possible to find six
convenient offsets so I guess we'll have to make do with it.


3)
I think I have overlooked Fergus' idea of having a champion at each game.
Yes, it is possible to have a Chess champion, a Xiangqi champion and a
Shogi champion between the players who have scored two wins at each game.

If there are two players with two wins at one game, they play two games,
playing once as White and once as Black. In case of equality, they play
one game with the higher-ranked player playing as White (and then as Black
in case of a further draw, and then as White, and so on).
(If both players so choose, they can play only one game with the
higher-ranked player playing as White, and then as Black, and so on.)
If there are three players with two wins at one game, they meet each
other, playing once as White and once as Black. In case of equality, the
two better-ranked players play one game with the higher-ranked player
playing as White (and then as Black in case of a further draw, and then as
White, and so on).
If there are four players with two wins at one game, they meet each other,
the two higher ranked players playing twice as White and once as Black. In
case of equality, the two better-ranked players play one game with the
higher-ranked player playing as White (and then as Black in case of a
further draw, and then as White, and so on).
If there are five or more players with two wins at one game, they play
exactly two games, and the survivors will fight a subsequent round.

True, a player may get eliminated of a Chess, Xiangqi or Shogi playoff
because of a poor overall ranking in the other games, but only in
combination with one loss or two draws in that playoff.

Let's say there are nine participants:


     1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9

1        C   X       S   s       x   c
         =   1       0   1       1   1    4.5, two wins at Xiangqi
                                      
2    c       C   X       S   s       x 
     =       0   1       0   0       1    2.5, two wins at Xiangqi
                                      
3    x   c       C   X       S   s          
     0   1       0   =       1   1        3.5, two wins at Shogi  
                                      
4        x   c       C   X       S   s      
         0   1       1   1       1   0    4 (BS=11), two wins at Chess  
                                      
5    s       x   c       C   X       S   
     1       =   0       =   0       1    3, two wins at Shogi
                                      
6    S   s       x   c       C   X        
     0   1       0   =       0   0        1.5
                                      
7        S   s       x   c       C   X
         1   0       1   1       0   1    4 (BS=10.5), two wins at
Xiangqi
                                      
8    X       S   s       x   c       C
     0       0   0       1   1       1    3, two wins at Chess
                                      
9    C   X       S   s       x   c        
     0   0       1   0       0   0        1


player1, player3, player4 and player7 enter the general play-offs (1 is
always White, 3 is always Black).
The Chess title is played between player4 (White) and player8 (Black). If
they have one win (or two draws) each, player8 will become White. Let's
say Player8 wins.
The Shogi title is played between player3 (White) and player5 (Black). If
they have one win each, player5 will become White. Let's say player3
wins.
The Xiangqi title is played between player1, player2 and player7. Let's
say they score one win and one loss each, player1 is White and wins,
player7 is Black and loses, player2 only has some reason for complaining.


4) 
It is possible to qualify a Chess champion, a Xiangqi champion, a Shogi
champion and an overall round-robin champion (plus replacement players in
case of overlap, which means the second-ranked player will probably
qualify) for the final round of four, like Thomas suggested, but then, the
general play-off will have to follow the other play-offs. 
Maybe it is just as well.

If we proceed this way, player8, player3, player1 and the higher-ranked
remaining player (player4, thanks to a better Buchholz-Sokoloff index) vie
for the combined title, with player1 is always playing as White and player3
always playing as Black. 
(Of course player7 won't be happier than player2 before, but he also blew
several chances.)


5)
So there should be three rounds. Do you agree, and if so, how much time
should take each round?


6)
That formula requires at least seven players. Are there enough volunteers?

• A win and a draw at one game will often be enough to advance to the tournament for that game.
• The playoffs are by sudden elimination, with the player who ranked higher in the round-robin playing as White and qualifying in case of a draw.

Does it suit you?
Are there enough players interested?
Do you think it adds up to too many games? (six in the round-robin, about five in each game tournament for those who advance to the final, three or four for the overall championship)
How about playing the whole thing over two years?

I wrote [2006-01-05] 'I searched the Game Courier records for all games started in the year 2005, and came up with some interesting facts. Fischer Random Chess had 53 games, Shogi had 45 games, and 25 games included the word 'Shatranj' (15 Shatranj plus 10 modern variants). Chinese Chess and (FIDE) Chess also had around 25 games each - not counting games with zero moves. Game Courier records contain many unanswered (person to person) challenges. Searches for *Grand* and *Great* yielded 14 and 4 more games, not counting the 'Grand Shatranj' and 'Great Shatranj' games. Pocket Mutation Chess accounted for 8 games.'

I have run another search, this time for [Finished] games that started in the year 2006. Zero games of Fischer Random Chess (one game was played in 2007). Shogi = 32, (FIDE) Chess = 24, Chinese Chess = 19, Pocket Mutation Chess = 16, Grand Chess = 6. These games include Chess-Xianqgi-Shogi Tournament #1. A *Shatranj* search turned up 31 games, played by the usual suspects.