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Shanghai Palace Chess. A blend of Chinese, Japanese, and Western Chess. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]This is in response to Michael Howe's comment giving Shanghai Palace a 'poor' rating. First, I would like to thank Mr. Howe for taking time to comment, it is much appreciated. I would also like to ask if he played a game of Shanghai Palace Chess. I doubt it very much since it is very new. I played this game for 2 months against a Shogi/Chess/Xianqi player. I lost my first 4 games, but still had a blast. I then went on to win 6 straight, with mixed results following. My opponent liked it so much that he is working on a Zillions engine for it. Is it confusing? It depends on the player's knowledge. It is intended for players who know how to play Chess, Xianqi, and Shogi. If you know how to play those games, then Shanghai Palace is very easy to play. As for the idea of giving up a Western or Chinese piece for a weaker yet returnable Shogi piece, that is part of the strategy. It is a matter of tactical economics. Also, whatever is seen as a disadvantage in the game, well that same disadvantage applies to the opponent. I welcome comments, regardless of them being favorable or not. I would really like to hear a comment from someone after they have played the game. Sincerely, Gary Gifford
I don't like to rag on a game invented by someone who just praised one of mine, but in the interests of promoting good game design, I'll speak up anyway. This game reminds me of Frankenstein's monster, which was just pieced together from the body parts of various corpses. I doubt that what makes Chess, Xiang Qi, and Shogi such good games can be retained by combining them in this way. Each game is a carefully constructed whole. If you just rip pieces from each game and combine them in the manner that you have, I don't expect that the new game will retain the appeal of any of the original games. If you want to marry the best qualities of each game together, it would be best to find a way that is more seamless. However, that may be difficult, or even impossible. Combining all the best qualities of each game would be sort of like combining all the best qualities of a beautiful blonde, a beautiful brunette, and a beautiful redhead into one woman. While the game may be interesting to play, it lacks the aesthetic appeal that I find in games whose elements are woven together more seamlessly.
After reading over additional Shanghai Palace comments I realized something interesting in reference to the introduction of the game. For those who do not know, there is a brief story about students arguing over what was better, Chess, Shogi, or Xianqi. A wise man combined all three, asked the students to play it and then asked them to answer as to which they thought was best. And perhaps that wise man's action was indeed wise. For if the students' responses were 'that to merge the 3 games is to lose the beauty of each' then indeed they have learned a lesson, perhaps the lesson that the wise man already knew. However, that is not a lesson that I conciously intended. In fact, if you play this game you will realize that Cannons are more powerful than they are in Chinese Chess. And that a Western Pawn can support a Chinese Pawn. That the Queen can sometimes exchange herself for a Shogi Pawn to very good effect. One very respectable player/inventor who I admire referred to Shanghai Palace Chess as a 'Frankenstein Monster.' I am hoping it is, perhaps, more of an ugly duckling (although I happen to see beauty in it). I do hope, however, that players will give this game a try. Then, if they hate it, they have at least experienced it... felt the gravity of it. Perhaps I should finish the short story about Shanghai Palace Chess... I am now very curious as to how it ends.
I have to play this game before give an opinion. Some elements sound interesting, but I have doubts about how can look the game play. Is it coming a ZRF?
In regard to a Zillions version of Shanghai Palace Chess, a programmer friend of mine is [was] working on script. However, he just got swamped by tons of work-related programming and it may be a while before he can complete the ZRF. I think a ZRF is desperately needed for this game, as first impressions (with no actual game-playing basis) certainly seem to run on the negative side of the scale. Perhaps some would be willing to play via Game Preset? I will let ChessVariants know the moment the ZRF is ready.
I would be glad to assist in making a ZRF of this variant. Whether or not it is a 'Frankenstein's Monster' or an 'Ugly Duckling'(both of who just wanted to be liked by others). :)
I dedicate this comment respectfully to Dr. Suess, for reasons which will soon become clear. I started to write this as an e-mail response to a player/inventor who suggested that I make changes to S.P.C. But I feel it will do more good here, as a comment for all interested to see. Because of the story associated with Shanghai Palace Chess, i.e., that of a wise man teaching three students a lesson so that they will better respect Chess, Shogi, and Xianqi, I feel that I must really leave it as it is. If it is not liked, then that perhaps is its purpose, to put more focus on the other three games. To change the Western, Chinese, or Shogi elements further would destroy the entire concept... would make the wise man's lesson meaningless. I know that the game is quite playable. And for the game tester and me it was quite fun. Enough so that we put Shogi and Xianqi aside for 2 months and played Shanghai Palace Chess face-to-face (on a real board) for 2 months before I submitted the game. To glance at it and think about it for a few minutes and then refer to it as a monster or a chaotic mess [in contrast to playing 20 or so games of it]well there is certainly a big difference regarding the basis of perception... sort of like reading a movie review and commenting, as opposed to actually going out to see the movie. I think Doctor Suess would see the negative comments regarding S.P.C. as the 'Green Eggs and Ham' syndrome. Would you play it on a train? Would you play it in the rain? I would not play it on a train. I would not play it in the rain. I do not like Shanghai Chess. I do not like it, I must confess. ,,,, Anyway, I think that about sums it up.
Gary, did you try any other opening arrays? I'm curious about whether it's really best to have the Western and Shogi pieces opposite their counterparts. I suppose the Xiangqi pieces would have to be across from each other, because of the opposite-kings rule. And wherever the Xiangqi pieces begin would have to be the fortress. Maybe there could be a 'random opening' version of SPC where the 3 sections are arranged at random at the start of the game, subject to the constraint on the Xiangqi section. Then arranging the pieces within each section might also be done at random, or maybe they could be placed at the players' will, a piece at a time, in alternation.
Regarding random placements... Has anyone tried with fortresses on opposite CORNERS, adjusting the rule of opposite-kings to diagonals? Would it work? If it does, then the only difficult case is when a fortress is in the center and the other is on a corner... Maybe (just thinking here, I haven't tested this and I don't know if that would be too powerful) we could give blue some control about it. For example, letting him swap two adjacent sections of his own if that happens. (That is, if it's blue's fortress which is in the corner, he would be forced to play with both fortresses in the center, but if his fortress is in the middle [and red's is in a corner] then he could choose if he wanted opposite corners or parallel corners)
In reply to Mark Thompson's recent and welcomed comment. Mark, yes, other setups were experimented with. The first was as you suggested. But since western pieces could advantageously exchange themselves for Shogi pieces the game was much more volatile. Thus the shift to the cultures starting off facing each other. A second variation had a Gold General on D2 and F2 and a Silver General on E2 (this was mirrored for Blue). Western pieces were also arranged different. In that setup, blue had a hard time if red played a certain opening. In fact, it seemed that red could almost win by force. The posted setup neutralizes red's big opening advantage. I think there will be a pre-set for Shanghai Palace Chess in the near future. Also, Larry Smith has expressed interest in helping with a ZRF for Zillions. I think that players who give this game a try will find it strategically and tactically challenging. There are opening patterns, traps, combinations... In response to an earlier comment comparing the making of Shanghai Palace Chess to being somewhat like trying to make a beautiful woman by 'combining all the best qualities of a beautiful blonde, a beautiful brunette, and a beautiful redhead into one woman' [and this was stated in a negative tone] But give me the jpegs of those women and I can use a photo/paint progam to... well, anyway I bet I could get one heck of a darn nice image.
Gary, If you're really up to the challenge of combining images of a beautiful blonde, redhead, and brunette, let me give you the names of three beautiful actresses, images of whom can be found various places on the web, and see what you can do. For the blonde, I pick Heather Graham. For the redhead, I pick Milla Jovovich, as she appeared in the movie The Fifth Element. And for the brunette, I pick Patricia Ja Lee, who played the Pink Power Ranger in Power Rangers in Space. (I'm not really a fan of Power Rangers, but her beauty was so great it gave me all the reason I needed to watch Power Rangers in Space. You can probably thank her beauty for the eventual existence of Sentai Chess, Fusion Chess, and several games I based on Fusion Chess.)
Gee Whiz Fergus... how can I refuse a challenge like that? As the one lady [composed of three] concept is related to Shanghai Palace Chess by way of your analogy, I have made a composite and sent it to you. Best regards, Gary
To keep everyone up to date, Gary made two substitutions: Rachael Welch for Patricia Ja Lee and some unidentified redhead for Milla Jovovich, then combined the legs of Heather Graham, the torso of Welch, and the head of the unidentified redhead. I regarded the result as unattractive, but also explained that I had in mind a combination of faces, which is why differences in hair color mattered. Gary accepted this challenge, and today I sent him three JPG images, all of different actresses. The brunette picture is of the actress who played that sexy green chick in one of the original Star Trek episodes. The redhead picture is of the actress who played a Romulan commander in the latest Star Trek movie. And the blonde picture is of an actress who, as far as the Internet Movie Database can assure me, has never appeared in any Star Trek episode or movie. But they all have something in common. If you're clever enough, you can figure out what that is and who they all are. So I'll just leave it as a puzzle without mentioning their names.
So is someone going to post this fabulous composite picture for us, or must we forever remained tantalized by imagining what she/she/she must look like? Could it be added to the Shanghai Palace page, as an illustration of the concept of blending three different entities into a new whole?
This is in regard to the Fergus analogy pertaining to Shanghai Palace Chess, and about the associated challenge (better known as the composite lady image challenge). I find the image interesting and I may have my artist friend enhance it. There is also a new image (of a face) which is part of another Fergus challenge. But this 'composite imagery stuff' is not really related to Shanghai Palace Chess... at least not directly. It is merely an analogy run amok. The image has no place in the chess variants pages. But for those of you intrigued by the concept of the image you may like chapter 4 of my book, The Bermuda Pie-Angle. Chapter 4 is called, 'Ladies, Earthly and Otherwise.'
A note for anyone who is about to play Shanghai Palace Chess from the 'blue side': Currently the Game Courier will show the pieces upside down when blue is at the bottom. Although I just completed a game this way with no problem, it was quite awkward seeing the Shogi piece vectors oriented 180 degrees out of phase. So, you will need to be extra careful when making moves. When you play blue from bottom using the Zillions ZRF you will need to select the second piece set to have the pieces orient properly. Also, if you play this game it is very important to remember that the King is a Chinese King. He can easily be mated by a single Cannon since he cannot move diagonally.
For some reason, I have not been able to implement the flipping feature in
the preset with Shogi-style images.
So, I changed the images to be all right-side-up instead of Shogi-style.
<p>If anyone can point out my error in the original file that would allow
flipping, here it is:
<pre>
<?
$dir = 'http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/gifford/';
$pieces = array(
'a' => 'cpawn_b.gif', 'A' => 'cpawn_r.gif',
'b' => 'wbishop_b.gif', 'B' => 'wbishop_r.gif',
'c' => 'cannon_b.gif', 'C' => 'cannon_r.gif',
'd' => 'promoted_lance_b.gif', 'D' => 'promoted_lance_r.gif',
'e' => 'elephant_b.gif', 'E' => 'elephant_r.gif',
'f' => 'promoted_sbishop_b.gif', 'F' =>
'promoted_sbishop_r.gif',
'g' => 'guard_b.gif', 'G' => 'guard_r.gif',
'h' => 'promoted_silver_b.gif', 'H' => 'promoted_silver_r.gif',
'i' => 'promoted_sknight_b.gif', 'I' =>
'promoted_sknight_r.gif',
'k' => 'king_b.gif', 'K' => 'king_r.gif',
'l' => 'lance_b.gif', 'L' => 'lance_r.gif',
'n' => 'wknight_b.gif', 'N' => 'wknight_r.gif',
'p' => 'wpawn_b.gif', 'P' => 'wpawn_r.gif',
'q' => 'queen_b.gif', 'Q' => 'queen_r.gif',
'r' => 'wrook_b.gif', 'R' => 'wrook_r.gif',
's' => 'silver_b.gif', 'S' => 'silver_r.gif',
'u' => 'promoted_spawn_b.gif', 'U' =>
'promoted_spawn_r.gif',
'v' => 'promoted_srook_b.gif', 'V' =>
'promoted_srook_r.gif',
'w' => 'sbishop_b.gif', 'W' => 'sbishop_r.gif',
'x' => 'sknight_b.gif', 'X' => 'sknight_r.gif',
'y' => 'spawn_b.gif', 'Y' => 'spawn_r.gif',
'z' => 'srook_b.gif', 'Z' => 'srook_r.gif'
);
$flipped = array(
'a' => 'cpawn_b_rev.gif', 'A' => 'cpawn_r_rev.gif',
'b' => 'wbishop_b_rev.gif', 'B' => 'wbishop_r_rev.gif',
'c' => 'cannon_b_rev.gif', 'C' => 'cannon_r_rev.gif',
'd' => 'promoted_lance_b_rev.gif', 'D' =>
'promoted_lance_r_rev.gif',
'e' => 'elephant_b_rev.gif', 'E' => 'elephant_r_rev.gif',
'f' => 'promoted_sbishop_b_rev.gif', 'F' =>
'promoted_sbishop_r_rev.gif',
'g' => 'guard_b_rev.gif', 'G' => 'guard_r_rev.gif',
'h' => 'promoted_silver_b_rev.gif', 'H' =>
'promoted_silver_r_rev.gif',
'i' => 'promoted_sknight_b_rev.gif', 'I' =>
'promoted_sknight_r_rev.gif',
'k' => 'king_b_rev.gif', 'K' => 'king_r_rev.gif',
'l' => 'lance_b_rev.gif', 'L' => 'lance_r_rev.gif',
'n' => 'wknight_b_rev.gif', 'N' => 'wknight_r_rev.gif',
'p' => 'wpawn_b_rev.gif', 'P' => 'wpawn_r_rev.gif',
'q' => 'queen_b_rev.gif', 'Q' => 'queen_r_rev.gif',
'r' => 'wrook_b_rev.gif', 'R' => 'wrook_r_rev.gif',
's' => 'silver_b_rev.gif', 'S' => 'silver_r_rev.gif',
'u' => 'promoted_spawn_b_rev.gif', 'U' =>
'promoted_spawn_r_rev.gif',
'v' => 'promoted_srook_b_rev.gif', 'V' =>
'promoted_srook_r_rev.gif',
'w' => 'sbishop_b_rev.gif', 'W' => 'sbishop_r_rev.gif',
'x' => 'sknight_b_rev.gif', 'X' => 'sknight_r_rev.gif',
'y' => 'spawn_b_rev.gif', 'Y' => 'spawn_r_rev.gif',
'z' => 'srook_b_rev.gif', 'Z' => 'srook_r_rev.gif'
);
$flip = true;
?>
</pre>
For anyone looking at move couriers for Shanghai Palace Chess, please note that the board with the new 'Fergus' piece set is not set up correcectly at this time. For those interested, the new Fergus pieces include Chinese simulated wood international graphics pieces, western pieces, and the familiar modern Shogi pieces. This makes for a nice alternative set. On a different note: A special thanks to Fergus, Tony Q., and I believe L. Lynn Smith for resolving the 'Piece Flip Problem' and another thanks to Fergus for putting together the alternative piece set.
Would all the posters to this variant who promised to evaluate it after trying the ZRF, please do so. In my opinion, the current level of rating is quite unfair since it is based on a single posting. Being an individual involved with the project, rather remotely, I am not at liberty to make an un-biased judgment. But if I were, I would rate this game as 'Excellent'.
If there is enough interest and if none of the Senior Members of ChessVariants are opposed to it I would like to host a Shanghai Palace Chess Tournament (using the original version of the game). Note that if you use the Zillions engine you can gain a good understanding of the game, However, if you expect the Zillions engine to help you win games you will be disappointed as this is one game that so far the human mind is [for the most part] much better at.
Which pieces can and cannot be dropped (by the rules of Shogi)?
This is to answer the question posted about which pieces can be dropped in Shanghai Palace Chess. Only the Shogi pieces and Shogi pawns can be dropped. The Shogi pieces can be quickly identified by their angled point. If you have Zillions you can play the game and see how pieces are dropped. However, note that the zrf currently mishandles cannons in a horrific manner.
yes this game can't have a 'poor' rating, it's fantastic :)) it would be even better with the cannon prob fixed, but even still, that can't make it anything less than .. fantastic :)
hey, i thought it looked good too lol, the graphics :) oh well ...
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