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Rococo. A clear, aggressive Ultima variant on a 10x10 ring board. (10x10, Cells: 100) (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Moussambani wrote on Tue, May 21, 2002 06:49 AM UTC:
Looks good, but are two long leapers necessary? It seems to me that having just one repeated piece is not elegant (this is my OPINION in GENERAL, I'm not saying your game is not elegant). What do you think about that?

💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, May 21, 2002 03:52 PM UTC:
Well of course elegance is in the eye of the beholder, but that's hardly a satisfying answer, is it? <p> Why only one doubled piece? Well, the descent of Rococo is from Orthochess via Ultima, and in Orthochess of course there are three pairs of pieces, while in Ultima there are two pairs, and Rococo has one pair. It seems as piece types are added, doubled pieces are removed. <p> But that's history, not an answer. One way to look at it as is that pieces in Rococo are either <strong>paired</strong> or <strong>doubled</strong>. Here are the pairs: <p> <ul> <li>King and Chameleon. This is the weakest pairing, but does correspond roughly to Orthochess's King and Queen: the piece the must be captured and the piece that captures in the most ways.</li> <p> <li>Advancer and Withdrawer. The two mirrored capture methods, also the two capture methods borrowed from Fanorona.</li> <p> <li>Immobilizer and Swapper. The piece that stops opposing pieces from moving, and the piece that can move opposing pieces.</li> <p> </ul> This leaves the Long Leaper doubled up, as it doesn't seem to have a logical complementry partner. Can you think of one?

Jianying Ji wrote on Sun, May 26, 2002 12:22 AM UTC:
A possible pair of leapers:

Long leaper: same as in this variant except when capturing must jump over
             at least two empty squares before the captured piece.

Short leaper: moves as an Orthodox Queen and captures by overtaking. 
              the piece captured must be within two squares of the
              short leaper. It may land any vacant square somewhere 
              beyond it. It may jumpover friendly pieces, but not 
              capture them. It captures any enemy piece(s) lept over.
              The adjacent square that it lept over must be occupied.
              It may not make more than one short leap in a turn. It 
              may end its move on an edge square only when that is the 
              only way to make a particular capture.

Brady wrote on Wed, Jun 5, 2002 04:31 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
Cool

Joseph DiMuro wrote on Sun, Sep 1, 2002 03:28 AM UTC:
A question for Fergus Duniho: how close is Supremo to completion? Not trying to rush you or anything... :-) I'm just curious.

Robert Abbott wrote on Fri, Jan 30, 2004 12:23 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
As the inventor of Ultima, I'd like to say that Rococo looks great to me. I haven't actually played it because, well, I'm getting too old to play perfect-information, non-chance games (they take too much brains and energy). But that shouldn't stop me from making a suggestion: I think you should get rid of the Long-Leapers. That would do away with the need for the border of extra squares. You could replace the two Long-Leapers with two 'Triangulators,' a different type of Coordinator. A Triangulator moves orthogonally, and at the end of its move, it captures any enemy piece that is on an intersection of diagonal lines that run through both Triangulators. Because they can easily make captures on the opponent's side of the board, they would make better attack pieces than the old Coordinator in Ultima. If one Triangulator is captured, the other Triangulator wouldn't have much to do, but it could hang around in case a Cannon Pawn is promoted to a Triangulator.

💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Fri, Jan 30, 2004 05:32 AM UTC:
The Triangulators sound interesting, but would not be able to attack pieces in or near corners. They also fail the clarity test. <p> As for the ring board, well, it helps Withdrawers as well as Long Leapers. But there's a more general issue. Rococo might have started as a design project to fix the flaws in Ultima, but the resulting game is: <p><ol><li> Not all that much like Ultima; <p><li> A good game in its own right with it's own style of play that differs from Ultima. </ol><p> In general, I don't think we'll really see an improved Ultima that will replace Ultima, but rather we'll see a family of Ultima-derived games, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. And I don't see anything wrong with that -- this site has hundreds (thousands?) of different Chess variants, and they don't really replace one another, but rather they are all available for the interested player. There really isn't any overwhelming need for a single perfected Ultima game, assuming such a thing is possible.

George Duke wrote on Fri, Jan 30, 2004 05:43 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
The edge squares are essential for all the pieces since each can be swapped
there, or end there in capturing, if only from another edge square.  The
Long Leaper is a more natural piece than say a Cannon, and 
in Rococo exceeded in value by two other pieces. My estimates:
Immobilizer 10, Advancer 8, LL 7, Swapper 5, Chameleon 4, Withdrawer 3,
Cannon Pawn 2. A Triangulator, as described, or Coordinator for that
matter would not fit in well with this mix of pieces.
CVP has about 2000 games the last time I checked, somewhat fewer than
David Pritchard's Encyclopedia.  Of course, there is substantial overlap,
such as Ultima.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Fri, Jan 30, 2004 08:27 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
The game is excellent as it is -in its three variants-, and Ultima is, certainly, an extraordinary game too. These games are enterely different in the game play, and both are nice, each one with its own characteristics. No changes to any of them!.

Antoine Fourrière wrote on Fri, Jan 30, 2004 10:18 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Yes, Rococo and Ultima should both thrive, somewhat as the open standard
and as the closed standard of the same kind of game. That open or closed -
strategic - character derives from the Pincer Pawns in Ultima and from the
edge squares and Cannon Pawns in Rococo.
Where I disagree is about tactics, that is, the officers. I would enrol
one Coordinator, one Swapper, one Withdrawer, one Advancer, one Long
Leaper, one Immobilizer and one Chameleon in both games. I don't see what
makes the Advancer, the Coordinator or the Long Leaper worthwhile only in
Ultima or only in Rococo. Indeed, I find the lack of either frustrating.
(Should one or two new pieces - not pieces capturing by replacement -
prove valuable in a future Ultima-Rococo spin-off, I would also call for
adding them.)
As for evaluation, well, I would reverse George's values for the Advancer
and the Long-Leaper and also for the Swapper and the Chameleon.

💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, Feb 17, 2004 03:39 AM UTC:
Antoine, I have been considering for a while if one of the Long Leapers could be replaced by a different piece, but I think my original reasons for removing the Coordinator -- lack of clarity and difficulty of use in closed positions still applies. Still, maybe something different could be used. <p> One possibility would be some form of rifle capture. I have uploaded a ZRF: <p> <ul> <li><A HREF='../programs.dir/zillions/rococo-r.zip'>rococo-r.zip</A> </ul> <p> Which contains two ZRFs: RococoA.zrf and RococoB.zrf. <p> RococoA.zrf adds two variants that replace a Long Leaper with an Archer, a piece that moves like a non-capturing Queen <strong>or</strong> captures a piece one or two squares away on a Queen line without moving, if the line of sight is clear. <p> RococoB.zrf replaces the Archer with the Bird (inspired by Ralph Betza's game <a href='../diffmove.dir/forthebirds.html'>This Game is For the Birds</a>), which is like the Archer, but can capture <em>through</em> an intervening piece. <p> Have fun and let me know what you think!

Antoine Fourrière wrote on Tue, Feb 17, 2004 05:04 PM UTC:
Peter, I think your proposal is superior to both the original Rococo and to
what I suggested. The Archer (or the Bird, but I prefer the Archer) brings
in a rifle capture element which is quite overdue. (Should the Archer
prove too strong, I would suggest to have it capture only at a distance of
a Knight's move (or only at a distance of two squares), so as to retain
the possibility of an Archer acting upon an Immobilizer.)
True, Ultima or Rococo probably shouldn't feature a Coordinator if there
are already four officers which capture more or less through relative
position (not to mention the King and the Pawns). However, although the
Coordinator is somewhat arbitrary and sometimes inefficient, it offers a
flavor of delocalized capture which I would like to revive into another
piece, maybe on a bigger board. How about a queen-moving piece which would
capture an officer (maybe not the King) by reaching its starting square.
Or by reaching the square it last occupied?

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Tue, Feb 17, 2004 08:29 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Peter, I have played a few quick games against Zillions. I´m greatly surprised of the Archer, it fits perfectly in the game and it adds new nice alternatives. i like it. As suspected, Birds are much more powerful than needed for the game, for this reason I prefer undoubtely the Rococo-Archer, more than the Bird-Archer and more than the original Rococo, this piece adds a lot to the game. It was not clear why two Long-Leapers in Rococo. With the Archer, one Long-Leaper is enough, and it is not necessary answer why. About Ultima, it looks fine with the Queen and the Advancer, but due the power of Queen the game play is notoriously different than in Ultima, I like it. I have not tried the Leo or the weak Leo yet, I´ll try to make a primitive code in the next days, and see what happens.

💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, Feb 17, 2004 09:02 PM UTC:
Roberto, Antoine, <p> I think it's a bit early to definately say that Rococo with Archers is superior -- that will take a fair bit of playtesting. I am somewhat concerned, for instance, by the Archer's potential for sniping away Pawns. Do either of you have any opinions <em>which</em> Long Leaper is best replaced? <p> In any case, I will, when I get a chance, add the Archer to the Rococo presets lists of acceptable pieces so that experimentation can take place. <p> <hr> <p> Antoine, <p> A piece that captures by moving to a piece's starting square -- I like that! You could build a FIDE-like variant around that. Something like: <p> <p> <h3 align=center>Unmaker Chess</h3> <h4>Introduction</h4> <b>Unmaker Chess</b> is a variant where each player has two additional pieces -- Unmakers -- which start off board, and capture pieces by moving on to a square that a piece started on. <h4>General Rules</h4> Unmaker Chess is played by the rules of FIDE Chess except where specified below. All pieces and Pawns in Unmaker Chess must be permanently marked with their starting square. <h4>Unmakers</h4> Each player starts with two Unmakers off board. On any turn, a player may drop an Unmaker on any empty square on their back rank. Unmakers move like noncapturing Knights. An Unmaker captures by moving to an empty square that an opposing piece started the game on, capturing that piece. Promoted Pawns may be captured by an Unmaker moving to the Pawn's starting square. A threat by an Unmaker to move to the opposing King's empty starting square is check.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Wed, Feb 18, 2004 02:40 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
Michael: I have had the idea of trying some Optima pieces for Ultima, too, although it seemed natural the first try with the FIDE-Queen, due the fact that all the pieces in Ultima move as the Queen. The Advancer looks fine in conjunction with the Queen (really good, you can essay), but I disagree with the presence of Withdrawer, it is a weak piece that is difficult to manage for attack (or defense!) purposes. I´m not enterely disconform with the Coordinator, it is a weak piece, but it adds some interesting possibilities to tactics. If you can suggest sustitutes to Withdrawer and Coordinator, or to the combination Queen-Advancer, I can test them in the context of the game. The idea is a game that preserves ULTIMA´s essence, but with a rich, relatively clear, nice and beautiful game play, usually the primary good ideas are not enough, one can be only convinced (perhaps never at all, due the self-criticism that acts as an impulse of human beings, looking always for better things) after some careful play-testing. We are trying to offer alternatives for a consolidated game with peculiar fans, We have did some things that I think are good, but it is ever a hard work redefining a game looking for improvements, because it is not easy stablish clearly the colective criteria, and what things are the things that the majorities really want.

💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Wed, Feb 18, 2004 06:18 AM UTC:
Antoine Fourrière has been kind enough to point out a bug in the ZRF's in <a href='../programs.dir/zillions/rococo-r.zip'>rococo-r.zip</a> -- Chameleons immobilized Archers and Birds. This has now been fixed, and the current revision for both RococoA and RococoB is 3.1. <p> <hr> <p> Michael, the whole development issue is why I limited the range of Archers to two squares. At least you have to advance them to use them offensively.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Wed, Feb 18, 2004 12:02 PM UTC:
Peter, range-two Archers are particulary strong against Cannon-Pawns, its power limits a little the force of these pieces. Cannon-Pawns, originally thought as minor pieces, are not that in Rococo, they are, subjectively, almost as strong as some other pieces. With the Archer on the board, its power diminish enough that you can observe it clearly, but it should be sane. Range-one Archers are very weak, it is close the same thing than introduce a Withdrawer in Rococo, range-one Archers are only a bit more useful than a Withdrawer. I still support the range-two Archers, they fit very well in the game. But I´m inclined to add an additional rule: Archers can attack the King only if it is exactly two squares away. If not, Kings are very vulnerable to Archers in the ends of game. Exactly-two-squares-Archers can be tested too, its power must be in the middle of range-one and range-two Archers, but perhaps more close to the power of range-one Archers, I conjecture.

Michael Nelson wrote on Wed, Feb 18, 2004 10:29 PM UTC:
I've playtested Roccoco with Archers and find it quite playable. The way
an Archer can pick off Pawns is a strength, not a weakness. As in Ultima
and standard Rococo, the Withdrawer is quite weak. Why not replace the
Advancer with the even stronger Pushme-Pullyu and add a new piece type?

Michael Nelson wrote on Sat, Feb 21, 2004 12:50 AM UTC:
Some guesses at Rococo piece 'beginner values':

Immobilizer=4
Long Leaper=3
Advancer=3
Swapper=2
Cameleon=2
Withdrawer=1
Cannon Pawn=1
Archer=2
Pushme-Pullyu=5

Some scary exotics:
LL/PP (can caputure as either or both)=9 
Archer/Advancer=6 
Cameleon/Swapper=5 

Rococo With Different Armies, anyone?

💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, Mar 16, 2004 09:44 PM UTC:
I've been wondering about Rococo with Archers. If you take Roberto's suggestion of not allowing Archers to capture adjacent Kings, and make Withdrawers immune to Immobilizers, the game seems fairly workable, but kind of fiddly. Any thoughts anyone?

Antoine Fourrière wrote on Wed, Mar 17, 2004 06:48 AM UTC:
Regarding pieces which simply capture by relative positions, one Advancer
(a Pushme-Pullyu is too strong, and a FIDE-Queen not very different), one
Long-Leaper and one finely-tuned Archer seem enough.

The Swapper, which like the Immobilizer, the Chameleon or the Shield, is a
piece of its own nature, also combines two mechanisms, mutual capture and
mutual displacement, neither of which is very powerful.

Why not have the Withdrawer, which is worth less than half any other
officer, recruit an enemy piece it withdraws from, instead of merely
capturing it, provided that enemy piece has been previously lost?
(variant: it could convert by withdrawing one square, even if that piece
hasn't been captured for its side, and capture if it withdraws two or more
squares)

This raises the problem of Pawn recruitment. Should the Pawns be dealt
with individually, mirror-like, or could a Pawn replace any other Pawn?
I would suggest to make Pawns simply faithful.
(Unmakers require a similar decision.)

Anonymous wrote on Sat, Apr 17, 2004 12:23 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

Greg Strong wrote on Sat, Sep 18, 2004 06:41 PM UTC:
Swapper question ... Can a swapper perform 'mutual destruction' with a
friendly piece?  The rules aren't clear on this.

Thanks!

💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Sat, Sep 18, 2004 07:20 PM UTC:
Capture by mutual destruction is capture still, and you may only capture
opposing pieces in Rococo.  The loss of the capturing Swapper is more in
the nature of a cost for that capture.

Antoine Fourrière wrote on Tue, Nov 23, 2004 01:40 AM UTC:
There is an inconsistency between David's animated illustration for the
Chameleon and Peter's Zillions file.
Is a Chameleon allowed to capture a Long-Leaper and/or a Withdrawer and/or
an Advancer and swap with an enemy Swapper in the same move, as shown on
the animated illustration but not allowed by the zrf?
Besides, is a Chameleon allowed to swap with its own Swapper?
(The zrf allows it, though it is not formally equivalent to the Swapper
swapping with its own Chameleon, since the Swapper may be immobilized.
For the record, a similar rule would be unplayable for a variant with
Chameleons and Shields. The Chameleon and Shield would protect each other,
and the Shield would protect the King.)
If the answer to both questions is yes, is a Chameleon allowed to capture
a Long-Leaper and/or a Withdrawer and/or an Advancer and swap with a
friendly Swapper in the same move?

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