Comments/Ratings for a Single Item

Just started studying this game.  So I'll not make any evaluation at this
point.

It does look interesting.  Even the Missiles.

If Andy doesn't mind, I'll work a Zillions implementation to play the
game.  I'll include all the end-game conditions.

Just worked up a Zillions implementation and let the engine run through a
game with Maximum Strength, mid-range Variety and 3 minute Time.

The game ended with Blue winning in less than 40 turns.

Some observations:  The Gauntlet gives the dynamic of the 'castle' of
XiangQi.  The Missiles were not brought into play until well within the
mid-game, and it appears that the first to use them will lose them. 
Neither side brought their Colonels into play during the entire game but
this might be just a simple idiosyncrasy of the Zillions engine.

I'll be running at least a dozen more games at various settings before I
make my final conclusions.

as for the piece names, i'm open to suggestions... believe it or not, the 'queens' were called 'stars' before they became 'generals'... and the 'gauntlet' was called 'hollywood blvd'... get it?... 'you have to have a star on the hollywood blvd'... then a chess-playing friend of mine was like, 'dude you have MISSILES in the game!... how does that go with 'stars' and 'hollywood blvd?!' and i was like, 'i know'... so they became 'generals'... and 'hb' became 'the gauntlet'

i chose 'colonel' for the 'knight' equivalent because it 'flies' or 'leaps' over other pieces... and a colonel has a 'bird'.. they were 'paratroopers' before... the knight in international chess always reminded me of a paratrooper...

... interesting that someone was able to plug this game into another program and from the sound of it, colonels didn't get moved much?.... they are fairly mobile what with the 'extra' range over 'classical' knight/horse equivalents from international chess/xiangqi...

...i'm glad you are having some fun with it...

oh and someone mentioned the 'gauntlet' being kind of like the 'palace in xiangqi?... yes... i wanted to have some kind of 'terrain' in the game... like xiangqi.....

thanks for looking at it!... let me know if i can answer any other questions, or if you think sections of the rules need re-writing... or if the 50 turn limit really is unneccessary or makes the game less enjoyable......

question... what do you think of the 'super cannons?'... the 'artillery' with diagonal capability in addition to the orthogonal?

andy

In case it can capture to any square, here is one way to make Missile not
too much powerful: It can only capture to a square if it could move to
that square using a move of a Q or C, but still can't capture a piece on
opponent's first row.

Gone through a few more games.  Haven't reached 50 turns yet.  So it seems
that the 50 turn rule is not a problem.  It would probably handle position
repetition situations.

Those Colonels have still not jumped.  I checked to be sure that they
work.  For some reason, Zillions is just not considering them part of the
equation.  Possibly because it takes several moves before they come into
contact with enemy which are greater in value than they.  I might run a
game with a 8 move search depth and infinite time.  This may just take a
lot of computing.

The military terms for the pieces is fine.  Very Shogi-y.  I see no reason
to make any adjustments.  Though some Chess variant purists balk at
thematic games.  But that's their problem.

And those Missiles are great.  Their threat can be felt at every move.

I have not tested this game yet, but I´m a bit curious. In principle, I
don´t like too much missil power, but this is only a first appretiation

I've been experimenting with an alternative set-up pattern:

RNBMQQQMBNR
00C00C00C00
PPPPPPPPPPP
00000000000
00000000000
00000000000
PPPPPPPPPPP
00C00C00C00
RNBMQQQMBNR

Stepping the front two lines back a rank allows for significant
development during the opening game.  I also moved the 'e' file
Artillery(C) to the 'c' file and the 'g' file Artillery to the 'i'
file.  These Artillery(C) now will threaten the opposing Colonels(N).

Ran Zillions with this pattern and it responded quite nicely.  The
Colonels came into play, one was even used by an Artillery piece to
threaten an opposing General.  Red won in less than 45 turns.

ok... i like the idea of the artillery opposing the colonels on the
diagonals... the thing with the pawns on the respective 3rd rather than
4th ranks... that is how the pawns originally were... i moved them up to
the 4th in order to speed the game up...... as for the missiles... i'm
happy with how they are... as someone else alluded, they add a real
'tension' to the game... another thought on this is that, although the
missiles are very powerful, the pawns are such that building mutually
supporting positions - defensible against missiles - is fairly easy...
also, originally the game had 13 ranks and there were 2 'air force'
pieces which precluded any missile from attacking within 3 squares of
them.. that was the 'air force' piece's sole function... defense
against missiles... i started to think that was too 'wargamish' and not
'like chess' so i took the 'air force' pieces out.... but then the
missiles were way too deadly so i came up with the idea of the backline
being a safe zone... the tension created by the missiles is a feature of
the game......  i might go with - as larry suggested - the pawns on
respective 3rd ranks and spread the artillery out onto the diagonals
opposing the colonels... whether or not the pawns should be moved
'back,' the idea of the artillery spread out is good......  i kind of
like the colonels being 'slow'... reminds me of their counterparts -
horses - in xiangqi... from what testing i've done they tend to come
into
play toward the end of the game...... but all the same i have thought
though of increasing the colonels to 3 squares instead of 2... but will
have to think some more ... get more feedback ...on that ........ i
definitely wanted to keep this variant short in playing time... thus
wanted 50 turns to be fairly inconceivable... that's my main concern
about moving the pawns back to 3rd rank... will it develop quickly enough
in human/human?... one reason i want to 'force the issue' with this
variant is because of the large numbers of pieces... 25 per side... i'm
looking to make it 'unbalanced' quickly... that is why the promotions
are so high..... i've played a little shogi and the 'easily
unbalanced'
was something i wanted to bring over at least in part from shogi...... it
seemed like an 'american' idea too... kind of like 'go go go... hurry
and finish this game so we can start another one'....... anyway, moving
the pawns back... spreading the artillery... maybe it will still fit
within 50 turns... also, i could dispense too with the turn limit
altogether... i'm fairly certain most games would be done within 60+
moves, even with pawns at the 3rd ranks at the start... .......a bit more
on the piece naming... if i didn't already mention about the colonels...
it's because of the 'bird' ('full bird colonel') an american colonel
is 'marked' with... the colonels in american chess 'jump' or 'fly'
so i thought the colonel analogy apt... as for the 'tank brigades'...
well i have always seen rooks/chariots in fide/xiangqi as 'armor' or
'tanks'... it's probably because i come from an avalon hill gaming
background.. chess is fairly 'new' to me... so by adding the word
'brigade' in there i could take out the 'r' and notate the 'tanks'
with that... same with the 'recon battalion'... added 'battalion' in
so i could use the 'b' to denote them... since they are identical to
their counterparts in 'FIDE' (?) chess i thought using the same letters
would be a good idea... and 'colonel' came about also partly because of
the 'n' in the word... i'm not sure how 'artillery' begets a
'c'...
 grins... but whilst playing xiangqi i'm always referring to the cannons
as 'artillery'... it is just a coincidence that 'missile' has an
'm'
and these are in similar position to 'ministers' in xiangqi...
obviously
the similarities for these pieces end at that... the 'soldiers' or
'privates' or 'pawns' of course are denoted with 'p' ... and
'generals' with 'q' because they are exactly as queens in 'fide'...
anyway, thanks again larry and the rest of you for your feedback/help...

So far, there has not been a game which exceded the 50 turn limit.  So that
rule does not really need to be modified.  It will actually put pressure on
each player.  To take down that last General before the limit, or to keep
that last General through the limit.

There has been several promotion in each game, but these have not
seriously increased the length of these games.  Often they were last ditch
efforts to create a needed General to stay in the game.

With the modified set-up, there is the opportunity of power piece
development early in the game.  Whereas the original created a barricade
which had to be removed to allow such pieces out on the field.  The
resulting structures from the new set-up resemble roman troop formations.

The value of the Missiles are so high that they are rarely risked on any
piece except the General.

wow, only played about 5 games but this game seems pretty good, the
missiles are fantastic and no problem with the 50 move rule. i love the
advanced pawns with the cannons placed in behind them, makes for fast and
sharp play. i like the way the pawns move too, great game.

thanks for the feedback, christine... i am glad you like it!...

i have moved the pawns back to the 3rd respective ranks, and fanned the
cannons out on the 2nd rank, with 1 in the center, and the outer cannons
on the diagonals leading to their opposing colonels (the 'e-g' cannons
are on 'c-i')... what do you think? ....... i am going to purchase the
zillions of games and would also be interested in posting larry's work
on
the american chess page... it sounds like 'ramping up' into
'zillions-of-games-LISP-language might take awhile... whereas larry has
already done the work...

well i must admit, i like the original way you set the pawns, i think it
suits the 'theme' of the game, the pieces etc ... did you find a flaw?
.. i know it is pretty tense right from the start, it must be a slower
game with the pawns starting on the 3rd .. more 'chessy' .. of course it
will play great, but i think, if  original setting is too unstable, you
could tighten it up, maintaining the original theme .. glad i got the
'beta' verison he he :) .. maybe you could put two variants out, they
would be so different. anyway, changing pawns makes hugh difference to
game, pretty interesting :)

hi christine, it's just that i playtested it several times with the pawns
on the 3rd rank... and it would push up against the 50 turn limit... which
was a concern... not so much that 50 turns was set in stone, but that i
wanted consistently shorter games than that... so i moved the pawns up to
the 4th rank to speed things up... then larry's research with the
zillions-of-games engine indicated that maybe the 50-turn limit wasn't a
problem, particularly when splitting two of the artillery out to the outer
files... by pulling the pawns back, but splitting the outside artillery
out, it gives the generals early openings, very similar in that respect to
the version you're playing... now i'm wondering... what about... pawns on
the 3rd ranks, artillery split out... but give the colonels a 3-square
instead of 2-square move?... the thing which larry mentioned about pulling
the soldiers (pawns) back was that he was seeing a lot more
'military-type' formations as the game had a bit more time to develop...
but like i said, maybe i will have to revisit that... the program as i have
it is all written, changing the starting spots is just minor tweaking....
same for changing the colonels to 3-square-movers... so maybe i should
leave it open-ended for now... see if any more people weigh in on this...
thanks again for the feedback

ok... i decided after all to go with the pawns on the 4th ranks... but
took
the suggestion to spread the cannons out to threaten the colonels... the
colonels remain at 2-square movement...... i was envisioning several
openings where the colonels could come into play fairly quickly... since
the colonels are only 'marginally' more powerful than a knight in fide,
i decided to leave them that way... didn't want to make them head and
shoulders above the recon battalions (bishops).... i had thought of
giving
tanks (rooks) single space diagonal, and recon single space orthogonal
movement... but it already 'plays so well' (if it suits your tastes)
that i've decided not to change things any more... thanks for the
feedback everybody... say larry if you're reading this would you care to
put together a zillions-of-games implementation with 4th-ranked soldiers
and cannons on '4,6, and 8' files of the 3rd rank?... i'm getting
zillions of games tomorrow but it might take me awhile to put together
the
same... by the way, the site is changed... it's now at
http://americanchess.tripod.com ... thanks again for the feedback... andy

the fifty move rule can be really exciting, when someone is trying to win
but is running out of time, i think it is a pretty good rule

'And as far as piece names go, no need to justify your choices.  Piece
names are the prerogative of the inventor ...'

Not only that, but those of us who construct our own sets will ultimately
just call the pieces by the names we like, and switch to 'official'
names only for online discussions if needed. Just like players started
calling the elephant a bishop. For instance I always call a B+N a
Cardinal, regardless of anyone who wants me to call it an Archbishop.
And if I ever get around to making a Navia Dratp set, I'm gonna make a
LOT of changes ...

Like that poem, 'The Moon': 

'You say it's made of silver, 
I say it's made of cheese. 
For I am an American, 
And say what I d*** please.'

I actually like the 50 turn rule.  It sets a finite dimension to the game,
forcing the players to make aggressive moves.

I've not run into a situation where the 50 turn rule was a negative.

Some theorists may propose that two players merely playing to simply 'not
lose' will consistently push this 50 turn envelope.  But this is not a
realistic observation because most players of games participate with the
intention of winning.

But players might consider a ranking with the 50 turn limit.  If one
player has more Generals than the other when this point is reach, they
might be considered the winner of the game.  Thus the only way to tie with
the 50 turn limit is for both players to have the same number of Generals.

hi larry,
is there any way you could send me the .zrf?... i have graphics but would
be interested to see your code... i just got the zillions-of-games today
but would be interested in seeing how you coded the gauntlet, and the
colonels, and the artillery... oh and the 'immunity' zones (back lines)
from missile attacks... i see in the online help how to do the promotion
zones, and can get the code for programming rooks, bishops, soldiers, and
generals from their equivalents in the other .zrf files... oh by the
way...i really like the korean chess and the japanese chess, among
others... the zillions of games thing is quite the engine! i will have to
download more .zrf 'packages' (.zip files) from here at
chessvariants...

anyway, if you can send your .zrf text file to [email protected] 

... that would be great... actually, if you wanted i could upload your
entire .zrf package as is to the american chess website... you make the
call... judging by the korean chess .zrf, it looks like it would be
fairly
easy for you to program in two or three variants...

whateve you decide, thanks for your help!